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Author Topic:   "Best" evidence for evolution.
Dredge
Member
Posts: 1318
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 811 of 830 (887785)
08-22-2021 12:29 AM
Reply to: Message 781 by AZPaul3
08-21-2021 4:20 PM


Re: Ordinary selection of built in variation is not species to species evolution
AZPaul3 writes:

The "sudden" appearance of these critters was preceded by their soft-bodied ancestors and, being lucky, even then we have the rare fossils of such pre-cambrian critters.


Wishful thinking and fantasy don't qualify as evidence. Despite the discovery of several BST* preCambrian fossil deposits, no fossil evidence of evolutionary lines of descent that link preCambrian to Cambrian biota has been found. Wake up, Bozo, and stop dreaming.

* BST (Burgess Shale Type) deposits are noted for their ability to fossilize soft-bodied organisms)

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 781 by AZPaul3, posted 08-21-2021 4:20 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 812 by AZPaul3, posted 08-22-2021 12:56 AM Dredge has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5984
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 812 of 830 (887786)
08-22-2021 12:56 AM
Reply to: Message 811 by Dredge
08-22-2021 12:29 AM


Re: Ordinary selection of built in variation is not species to species evolution
Wishful thinking and fantasy don't qualify as evidence. There exists no fossil evidence of an evolutionary line of descent that links preCambrian biota to Cambrian biota.

Not "no fossil evidence" but not as much as we would like.

There is a reason for that.

Pre-Cambrian Life | GSA Bulletin | GeoScienceWorld
An Ecological Theory for the Sudden Origin of Multicellular Life in the Late Precambrian
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/.../j.1472-4669.2007.00125.x

So life was evolving early in the pre-cambrian and life continued to evolve during the cambrian. No need for some god to poof up another creation with one already in full swing.

Such fantasies are the core disconnect with reality.

We have fossils from both sides of the cambrian period.

You have nothing for your crazy fiat creation.

Again, the actual physical data, though scant, IS there. We have it in museums and scholar collections world wide.

You present nothing to evidence your alternative fantasies.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : The Moose correction. Thanx Moose.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 811 by Dredge, posted 08-22-2021 12:29 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 813 by Dredge, posted 08-22-2021 1:20 AM AZPaul3 has responded
 Message 815 by Dredge, posted 08-22-2021 1:28 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 1318
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 813 of 830 (887787)
08-22-2021 1:20 AM
Reply to: Message 812 by AZPaul3
08-22-2021 12:56 AM


Re: Ordinary selection of built in variation is not species to species evolution
Despite the discovery of several BST* preCambrian fossil deposits, no fossil evidence of evolutionary lines of descent that link preCambrian to Cambrian biota has been found.

* BST (Burgess Shale Type) deposits are noted for their ability to fossilize soft-bodied organisms)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 812 by AZPaul3, posted 08-22-2021 12:56 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 814 by AZPaul3, posted 08-22-2021 1:26 AM Dredge has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5984
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 814 of 830 (887788)
08-22-2021 1:26 AM
Reply to: Message 813 by Dredge
08-22-2021 1:20 AM


Re: Ordinary selection of built in variation is not species to species evolution
Again, not none but not as many as we would like.

While you have an absolute zero as evidence. Pure fantasy.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 813 by Dredge, posted 08-22-2021 1:20 AM Dredge has not yet responded

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 1318
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 815 of 830 (887789)
08-22-2021 1:28 AM
Reply to: Message 812 by AZPaul3
08-22-2021 12:56 AM


Re: Ordinary selection of built in variation is not species to species evolution
AZPaul3" writes:

Such fantasies are the core disconnect with reality.


Are you sure a God creating new organisms is not part of reality?

Science is yet to explain how novel organs and body plans could arise (good luck with that, btw).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 812 by AZPaul3, posted 08-22-2021 12:56 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 816 by AZPaul3, posted 08-22-2021 1:45 AM Dredge has not yet responded
 Message 817 by AZPaul3, posted 08-22-2021 1:46 AM Dredge has not yet responded
 Message 818 by nwr, posted 08-22-2021 10:14 AM Dredge has not yet responded
 Message 821 by Tanypteryx, posted 08-22-2021 12:46 PM Dredge has not yet responded
 Message 822 by Percy, posted 08-22-2021 2:07 PM Dredge has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5984
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 816 of 830 (887790)
08-22-2021 1:45 AM
Reply to: Message 815 by Dredge
08-22-2021 1:28 AM


Re: Ordinary selection of built in variation is not species to species evolution
Science is yet to explain how novel organs and body plans could arise (good luck with that, btw).

Boy, you really are ignorant of the most basic concepts.

Do you have Google Scholar? Search history of a specific organ and, in many cases, you will find theories on how/why that capability evolved.

I'm not going to feed your bullshit insistence on a step-by-step chain from here to there. It's in the literature if you can bother to get your nose out of the bible and look at reality.

The fact, demostrable with years of study, is that your list of deficiencies in evolution are non-existant or dramatically overblown.

You're a religious carnie barker with no facts, no data, no intellect.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 815 by Dredge, posted 08-22-2021 1:28 AM Dredge has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5984
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 817 of 830 (887791)
08-22-2021 1:46 AM
Reply to: Message 815 by Dredge
08-22-2021 1:28 AM


Re: Ordinary selection of built in variation is not species to species evolution
Are you sure a God creating new organisms is not part of reality?

There is no reason to entertain such a ridiculous notion.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 815 by Dredge, posted 08-22-2021 1:28 AM Dredge has not yet responded

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5789
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 818 of 830 (887793)
08-22-2021 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 815 by Dredge
08-22-2021 1:28 AM


Re: Ordinary selection of built in variation is not species to species evolution
Are you sure a God creating new organisms is not part of reality?

If it is, then evolution is the means that God used.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 815 by Dredge, posted 08-22-2021 1:28 AM Dredge has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20219
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 819 of 830 (887795)
08-22-2021 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 792 by Dredge
08-21-2021 9:32 PM


Re: Ordinary selection of built in variation is not species to species evolution
Dredge writes:

quote:
I'm having trouble making sense of this. If you think the creatures we see today are not the same as those you think were originally created by God, then how do you think they became different?

I don't know how they became different ... and I dont think anyone else knows either ... or will ever know.

I'm still having trouble making sense of this. Aren't the problems with your view obvious? For example, isn't there an absence of any evidence that the creatures you believe were created only 6000 or so years ago are any different from those of today? Or maybe you're thinking of the changes within a species wrought by breeders (which is still evolution, but by directed selection instead of natural selection)?

And because changes over time recorded in the fossil record (though not often in just 6000 years because that's usually too short a period for detectable change) are explained by evolution, why do you say, "I don't think anyone else knows either"? Are you just casually stating an opinion, or do you think you possess information invalidating evolution and believe you are stating a fact? If the latter, what is that information?

For the sake of discussion let us say that the creatures you believe God created 6000 years ago have changed over time to a degree greater than can be brought about by breeders. Given that that's the definition of evolution, how is that not evolution? It would be an unusual amount of evolution for just 6000 years, and such rapid evolution would require explanation, but it would still be evolution.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 792 by Dredge, posted 08-21-2021 9:32 PM Dredge has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20219
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 820 of 830 (887796)
08-22-2021 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 795 by Dredge
08-21-2021 10:02 PM


Re: Ordinary selection of built in variation is not species to species evolution
Dredge writes:

Why are you lumping me in with other creationists?

When I drop phrases you've used into a search engine I find them all over the Internet. There are many flavors of creationism, the two major groups of thinking being YEC vs OEC, but why do you think you represent a unique one that hasn't already been seen here many times?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 795 by Dredge, posted 08-21-2021 10:02 PM Dredge has not yet responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2571
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 821 of 830 (887799)
08-22-2021 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 815 by Dredge
08-22-2021 1:28 AM


Re: Ordinary selection of built in variation is not species to species evolution
Dredge writes:

Science is yet to explain how novel organs and body plans could arise (good luck with that, btw).

That is incorrect. We already know you would never be able to understand it.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 815 by Dredge, posted 08-22-2021 1:28 AM Dredge has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20219
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.8


(2)
Message 822 of 830 (887805)
08-22-2021 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 815 by Dredge
08-22-2021 1:28 AM


Re: Ordinary selection of built in variation is not species to species evolution
Dredge writes:

Are you sure a God creating new organisms is not part of reality?

Not really the topic of this thread, but find an appropriate thread or propose a new one and present your evidence for a) God; and b) God creating new organisms.

Science is yet to explain how novel organs and body plans could arise (good luck with that, btw).

It might be more accurate to say that you reject scientifically developed hypotheses and theories of how novelty arises.

Evolution effects change through tiny incremental changes. Scientists have no had no trouble developing hypotheses and theories for the origin of all organs and body plans.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 815 by Dredge, posted 08-22-2021 1:28 AM Dredge has not yet responded

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2196
Joined: 07-15-2003


(1)
Message 823 of 830 (887810)
08-22-2021 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 779 by Dredge
08-21-2021 3:43 PM


Re: Ordinary selection of built in variation is not species to species evolution
Dredge, you quote:

"Furthermore, phylogenetic trees based on a certain anatomical feature will often contradict a tree based on a different anatomical feature."

" [...] In point of fact, there exists no such thing as 'the traditional textbook phylogeny'. A diversity of different schemes can be found."

... and go on to say:

If common ancestry is the reality, such contradictions should not exist and different forms of evidence should all point to one, unambiguous phylogenetic tree.

What you forget is that humans are fallible, scientists not excepted. Phylogenies are not the absolute truth, they are man-made approximations of the relatedness of life at various levels in the supposed 'tree of life'. So it is not surprising that contradictions sometimes occur in the endeavour to create a complete and accurate picture of the phylogenetic tree.

However, there is a great amount of overlap between a multiplicity of attempts at building a complete picture. And that's just in the area of phylogenetics proper. With the inclusion of relatively new evidence such as DNA-sequencing and other molecular techniques, the picture becomes ever more consistent. You are right in saying that different forms of evidence should all point to one, unambiguous phylogenetic tree. Increasingly, all the evidence combined does exactly that.


"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 779 by Dredge, posted 08-21-2021 3:43 PM Dredge has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19226
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 824 of 830 (887856)
08-23-2021 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 791 by Dredge
08-21-2021 9:16 PM


Re: Ordinary selection of built in variation is not species to species evolution
Dredge writes:

Just curious ... how would you describe my "god creation fantasy", exactly?


That seems fairly descriptive already.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 791 by Dredge, posted 08-21-2021 9:16 PM Dredge has not yet responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 4702
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 825 of 830 (887863)
08-23-2021 10:01 PM
Reply to: Message 795 by Dredge
08-21-2021 10:02 PM


Re: Ordinary selection of built in variation is not species to species evolution
Why are you lumping me in with other creationists?

I am doing no such thing.

Rather you are doing that yourself. For that matter, you are working overtime in demonstrating that you are one of the worst kinds of creationist troll.

To be honest, you have been away for so long that I honestly did not remember what kind of completely and utter ludicrous nonsense you had presented before. Now that's starting to come back to me.

Even without any kind of forum history, everything you have presented here in this most recent outburst demonstrates conclusively that you are nothing more than the most base bottom-feeding creationist troll. With absolutely nothing of any worth to contribute to any discussion.

Pity, that.

There are so many dark corners in the creationist mind that could illuminate that particular sickness were we allowed to examine them. Sadly, you sick creationists remain silent where it would most matter.

Edited by dwise1, : he's a troll

Edited by dwise1, : added "where it would most matter"


This message is a reply to:
 Message 795 by Dredge, posted 08-21-2021 10:02 PM Dredge has not yet responded

  
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