Evolution and the Human Immune System

Natural selection has long been an important feature of the creation model (as has allopatric speciation), and in fact was proposed by a creationist several years before Darwin (we suspect he 'borrowed' the idea from Blyth).The creation model recognizes NS as primarily a conservation mechanism. Since NS can only work with pre-existing genes, NS generally promotes loss of genetic information; the evolutionary model on the other hand argues that NS is capable of promoting genetic information gain over time. Given the countless experiments we've done on rapidly reproducing species, we can't find one provocative example of genetic information increase where there should be many if molecules-to-man evolution really occurred.

Rei, through your lens you see evolution, through my lens I see incredible design. How did such a complex program evolve?

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In the original case, you have a simple multicellular organism, perhaps something no larger than daphnia, running into the problem that bacteria are able to out-adapt them due to their faster reproductive rate. We'll look at a starting timeframe here in which the organism has only the basic ability to code for a simple set of antibody proteins, and reproduces from the possibilities based on how well they're bonding (we can go back further if you want). The organism would have trouble still at keeping up with bacteria - there's only so many cell receptors that they can have to test how well each antibody that they have the ability to code for bonds to an antigen, only so much DNA that they can have for producing the proteins, etc. But, if one of these simple creatures, due to a mutation, began coding for a slight mutagen that targets that region of the DNA, it would immediately gain an advantage for at least increasing how different the immune systems of the child organisms were from their parents. Stronger, more targetted mutagens, and mutagens which are produced more often when antigens are more common, are in turn more likely to be selected. If another protein develops that even slightly changes the cell's reproductive timing based on how good of a bond its antibodies are getting with the antigen - even through throwing off one of the cell's many timing feedback mechanisms - the cell can reproduce more quickly. A similar development can occur for the level of antibody production. And yet another similar development can occur for apoptosis of ineffective lymphocytes.

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I must say, that was one grandiose tale! This is called a just-so story. Do you know how many different antigens there are out there? That is the reason for the ingenious design of the immune system to handle a number far greater than the number of proteins that can be programmed for them in the DNA. In your example, the odds of extinction would be astronomical but you conveniently ignore this. Methinks this GA stuff has clouded your thinking!To be honest, I don’t feel like debating the irreducible complexity of the immune system. It’s been done a zillion times already on the net.

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Hey now, that's completely unfair. You presented the situation as if it were impossible. I quite clearly demonstrated a lineage in which an organism with an immune system that cannot do this mutation/selection of genes gets to one which can. Then you criticize me for a "grandiose tale"! No more childishness. If you wish to defend your argument, you need to explain what is unreasonable about the line of progression presented occurring.

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I’m not acting childish, I’m just stating things exactly how I see it. In my ever so humble opinion you told a grandiose tale that was ludicrous beyond words I can express here. For starters, you 1) didn’t even come close to addressing my original challenge, 2) you provided no evidence to back your tale, and 3) you did not provide a mathematical explanation model to demonstrate how it can happen. I’m not expecting some elaborate 'proof' because I realize the time limits here, but at least *some* substance. Perhaps something like so-and so- study showed that such a step-wise process, given conditions x,y,z, might produce result a,b, or c, in a time frame of t.. I didn’t expect, if a cow gets a good running start, and if it leaps successfully, it could jump over the moonnow Fred, don’t you at least agree a cow can get a better jump if it has a running start?

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And again, if your argument sums up to "there are other ways it coud have occurred than this", then you're actually helping my case.

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And again? I *never offered* an alternative scenario, because I can clearly see the genetics and math, let alone information science, do not support one!

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Do you acknowledge that any increase in the number of antibodies that the organism can produce increases its odds for survival? Do you acknowledge that it would be an advantage to increase the diversity in the population when it comes to the ability to resist diseases,

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Yes. Do you acknowledge you have not provided any evidence or mathematical model to defend this claim? Do you acknowledge that in the very least a new beneficial mutation would be extremely rare? Do you acknowledge that even when one occurs there is still no better than 1 in 50 chance it will survive in the population, even given a high selective value of .1%? Do you acknowledge there is a speed limit on how soon such a mutation can fixate (related to pop frequency at time of mutation)? Given these facts, do you grant that your response was a just-so story? Since it is you making the grandiose claim, it is therefore your responsibility to produce some kind of mathematical explanation to defend your claim.But let’s forget this initial task. Let’s assume this all happens! It doesn’t even get to the starting gate of my original challenge! How did the immune *program* itself evolve? When are you going to actually tackle this? Would you please describe how the whole antibody variable/constant region and hypermutation process that can pump out voluminous combinations of antibodies can evolve in a stepwise fashion?The problem with evolution is that this immune system is just one of a hole host of problems too numerous to count that must be overcome for evolution to take a tadpole from 3 billion years ago and mold it into an intelligent, witty, charming, stud like me! Evolution differs from a frog-to-prince fairytale only in the millions of years that were added to the story.