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Author Topic:   Has the Theory of Evolution benefited mankind?
Dierotao
Junior Member (Idle past 6095 days)
Posts: 22
Joined: 04-03-2006


Message 1 of 104 (301127)
04-05-2006 12:38 PM


With such time and effort given to the scientific study of the origins of mankind, I wonder if mankind receives any benefit from these studies of origins?
Has knowledge gained through Evolutionary theory advanced technology? Saved or healed lives? Brought peace and prosperity? Has the Theory of Evolutions "discovery" practically benefited, or advanced, humanity. Is the mere knowledge of truth about the origins of the physical universe beneficial to humanity? I.e. if Evolution cannot be directly, or physically, applied to the technological or social advance of man, does only it's knowledge actually benefit man (giving purpose to existence, motivation to succeed, personal ethical advance).
Also, if the study of origins does benefit man, does it benefit man as much as an equal advance in another field? Is it better for man to understand his history and the implication thereof, or to focus on his current and future well being? Why or why not has the study of Evolution been promoted as being of such great value?
Please understand that I am here refering not to mere micro-evolution, which most everyone would agree is fact, as well as beneficial to man. Rather, I am refering to macro-evolution, abiogenesis, big bang, geologic and fossil records, etc. Things which a staunch Creationist would typically disagree with. I suppose, as may be obvious from the phrasing of my questions, the answers I would most like to hear will come from a more humanistic mindset.

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Chiroptera, posted 04-05-2006 1:26 PM Dierotao has not replied
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 Message 5 by Tusko, posted 04-05-2006 1:33 PM Dierotao has not replied
 Message 41 by pink sasquatch, posted 04-05-2006 5:26 PM Dierotao has not replied
 Message 45 by melatonin, posted 04-05-2006 8:43 PM Dierotao has not replied
 Message 46 by Quetzal, posted 04-05-2006 9:46 PM Dierotao has not replied
 Message 48 by DominionSeraph, posted 04-06-2006 1:38 AM Dierotao has not replied
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AdminNWR
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 104 (301158)
04-05-2006 1:22 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 104 (301163)
04-05-2006 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dierotao
04-05-2006 12:38 PM


What counts as a benefit?
I'll let others talk about the "practical" benefits of the Theory of Evolution (if any). One benefit which I fear will end up being ignored is just the knowledge of the universe and how it works.
My main interest in science (and other subjects) is the enjoyment of learning more about the world in which I live. The Theory of Evolution is the explanation of how the world we live in has come to be the way it is, and the explanation of a wide variety of interesting phenomena. In my opinion, that alone justifies any and all research in the subject. As in any other field of science, any other "practical" results are just icing on the cake. (And, to be truthful, I prefer cake without icing.)

"Religion is the best business to be in. It's the only one where the customers blame themselves for product failure."
-- Ellis Weiner (quoted on the NAiG message board)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Dierotao, posted 04-05-2006 12:38 PM Dierotao has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 4 of 104 (301165)
04-05-2006 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dierotao
04-05-2006 12:38 PM


I see no benefits. The ToE is purely an ivory tower speculation with no pragmatic usefulness. All it has done is undermine Christianity and the moral absolutes most societies used to depend upon.
This message has been edited by Faith, 04-05-2006 01:32 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Dierotao, posted 04-05-2006 12:38 PM Dierotao has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by sidelined, posted 04-05-2006 1:36 PM Faith has replied
 Message 22 by pesto, posted 04-05-2006 3:09 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 23 by jar, posted 04-05-2006 3:13 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 47 by kuresu, posted 04-05-2006 11:46 PM Faith has replied

  
Tusko
Member (Idle past 101 days)
Posts: 615
From: London, UK
Joined: 10-01-2004


Message 5 of 104 (301166)
04-05-2006 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dierotao
04-05-2006 12:38 PM


There are a couple on the board (I'm thinking Crashfrog?) who will probably be able to address your main point head on. I however just wanted to make a little side point that I feel I should mention:
I think the distinction between micro and macro evolution is artificial, to say the least. To me it seems analogous to say that although I believe in micro-time because I observe seconds ticking by every day, that I don't believe in macro-time because I've never experienced a millenium first hand. It seems as though the onus is on the person drawing the distinction to say why 31557600000 individual seconds can't equal a thousand years... (Forgive me if my maths is radically awry!) or indeed why ten thousand genetic changes can't acrue into a different species.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Dierotao, posted 04-05-2006 12:38 PM Dierotao has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Chiroptera, posted 04-05-2006 1:37 PM Tusko has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 6 of 104 (301170)
04-05-2006 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Faith
04-05-2006 1:31 PM


Faith
I see no benefits. The ToE is purely an ivory tower speculation with no pragmatic usefulness.
So when a bird flu epidemic hits North America you will refuse the vaccination correct?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Faith, posted 04-05-2006 1:31 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Faith, posted 04-05-2006 3:49 PM sidelined has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 104 (301172)
04-05-2006 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Tusko
04-05-2006 1:33 PM


Hi, Tusko.
Good point and worthy of discussion, but the main topic of this thread has the potential of being very informative and interesting as well. In that spirit, I'm going to express my hope that we don't take this too far off-topic.
Undoubtably, your point is going to be addressed as some of the pragmatic benefits are introduced -- in fact, I have an idea of some objections that could be raised, and if they are I have an idea of how I'd address those.

"Religion is the best business to be in. It's the only one where the customers blame themselves for product failure."
-- Ellis Weiner (quoted on the NAiG message board)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Tusko, posted 04-05-2006 1:33 PM Tusko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Tusko, posted 04-05-2006 1:44 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
Tusko
Member (Idle past 101 days)
Posts: 615
From: London, UK
Joined: 10-01-2004


Message 8 of 104 (301174)
04-05-2006 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Chiroptera
04-05-2006 1:37 PM


Right you are chief. Sometimes I get the insuppressable urge to post something vaguely relevant on a topic that I suspect I'm not going to be able to contribute to very effectively. In my defence, I only brought it up because the poster alluded directly to these ideas in their opening post... but I realise I am being a bit random.
I'll be keeping my eyes peeled because this topic holds promise.
To that end, I'm going to pipe down... one last point -
As I'm sure everyone is aware - the practical benefits to be reaped from an idea don't have any bearing on the truth of said idea.
This message has been edited by Tusko, 05-Apr-2006 06:46 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Chiroptera, posted 04-05-2006 1:37 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Chiroptera, posted 04-05-2006 2:02 PM Tusko has not replied

  
SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 5834 days)
Posts: 772
From: Bartlett, IL, USA
Joined: 12-27-2005


Message 9 of 104 (301177)
04-05-2006 1:52 PM


Benefits
Let's see... I'm sure I can think of a few.
Antibiotic rotation
Gene Therapy
Genetically Engineered Crops
Pre-birth screening for various genetic disorders
Any medical treatment related to DNA or genetics
Any food science related to DNA or genectics
etc, etc, etc

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Percy, posted 04-05-2006 2:15 PM SuperNintendo Chalmers has not replied
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 104 (301179)
04-05-2006 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Tusko
04-05-2006 1:44 PM


Heh. If sidelined were to flesh out his bit about flu vaccination, I'm sure the objection would have something to do with "micro-" vs. "macro"-evolution. Then we would be a bit more on topic with this.

"Religion is the best business to be in. It's the only one where the customers blame themselves for product failure."
-- Ellis Weiner (quoted on the NAiG message board)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Tusko, posted 04-05-2006 1:44 PM Tusko has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Faith, posted 04-05-2006 3:55 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
Dierotao
Junior Member (Idle past 6095 days)
Posts: 22
Joined: 04-03-2006


Message 11 of 104 (301180)
04-05-2006 2:02 PM


Chiroptera and Tusko
Thanks for keeping it on topic guys. I know I was making a debatable presupposition by drawing a line between micro and macro evolution at the start. Really I just want the Evolutionists to show how the most debated aspect of the ToE are beneficial. What of the things Evolutionist hold, but Creationists do not, benefits mankind. Or, for the Evolutionist, if everything the Creationist argued was true, would there be any less benefit to mankind and it's advance. Hopefully that's clear enough. If anyone can think of a better way to phrase this your welcome to do so.
SuperNintendo Chalmers: Is the Theory of Evolution necessary to the study of genetics? Or, if the Theory of Evolution remained 'undiscovered', would men never have 'discovered' genetics? Is our knowledge of genetics dependent upon our knowledge of Evolution?
I apologize I am too narrowly defining the field here. Creationists agree with things that are current and observable. And it seems that these things which are current and observable are what is most beneficial to man. Unless historical hypothesis (ToE) of current observable effects furthers advance of current observable effects.
This message has been edited by Dierotao, 04-05-2006 02:11 PM

Replies to this message:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 12 of 104 (301181)
04-05-2006 2:05 PM


The difference in the way YEC's and evolutionists view the theory of evolution is one of scale. Both accept natural selection and descent with modification, but YEC's reject that it can cause significant species change over time.
Advances like inheritable disease analyses or bird flu vaccines do not derive from believing that large scale species change is possible, or that modern life shares a single common ancestor (or even a few common ancestors - from the YEC perspective there's not much difference). I don't think the parts of the theory of evolution rejected by YEC's have provided much tangible benefit, besides satisfying our yearning to know how the world works. This goes a bit beyond what Chiroptera said, since he granted the possibility of tangible benefits but chose only to comment on its "knowledge for knowledge's sake" benefits.
I think it might be difficult finding tangible benefits that a YEC could see depend upon accepting large scale species change.
--Percy
Fix grammar. --Percy
This message has been edited by Percy, 04-05-2006 02:24 PM

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 13 of 104 (301183)
04-05-2006 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by SuperNintendo Chalmers
04-05-2006 1:52 PM


Re: Benefits
SuperNintendoChalmers writes:
Let's see... I'm sure I can think of a few.
Antibiotic rotation
Gene Therapy
Genetically Engineered Crops
Pre-birth screening for various genetic disorders
Any medical treatment related to DNA or genetics
Any food science related to DNA or genectics
I'd like to put this in the context of my previous message. I don't think any of these scientific benefits derive from any science rejected by YEC's. What *is* extremely notable, however, is that all these benefits were developed by scientists who accept the theory of evolution. For whatever reason, those who hold the creationist perspective never make these types of contributions.
I don't actually believe there's a cause-and-effect relationship involved in this case. I think that creationists don't make any contributions to science not because their perspective is wrong, but because they don't really do science. I think a YEC geneticist, were one to exist, would be as capable of contributing to the development of bird flu vaccines as any other geneticist. The genetic processes involved would not violate his belief that change across kind boundaries is impossible.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Wounded King, posted 04-05-2006 2:42 PM Percy has not replied
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 104 (301185)
04-05-2006 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Dierotao
04-05-2006 2:02 PM


"microevolution" a benefit from ToE.
Hi, Dierotao.
If you accept that "microevolution" has resulted in benefits to humanity, then you are accepting that the Theory of Evolution has been beneficial. "Microevolution" is an idea that, obviously, came out of general evolutionary theory. "Microevolution" was applied to real life problems by scientists who had accepted the Theory of Evolution and were thinking of life in terms of evolution.
I doubt that "microevolution" would have occurred to creationist biologists. Without the Theory of Evolution, important techniques and ideas would not have been available as they are now.

"Religion is the best business to be in. It's the only one where the customers blame themselves for product failure."
-- Ellis Weiner (quoted on the NAiG message board)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Dierotao, posted 04-05-2006 2:02 PM Dierotao has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 15 of 104 (301186)
04-05-2006 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Dierotao
04-05-2006 2:02 PM


Hard time understanding your OP
You seem to be including a whole bunch of things under the generic umbrella of "Evolution", geology, fossils, abiognesis, the Big Bang among others.
The reason to study those things is that the Biblical Creationist models did not explain what was seen in the record. The reason to accept the findings of those studies is that they better explain the evidence seen than any model yet presented by the Biblical Creationists.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Dierotao, posted 04-05-2006 2:02 PM Dierotao has not replied

  
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