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Author Topic:   Biblical Creationism Requires Evolution
PaulK
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Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 82 of 121 (454266)
02-06-2008 7:41 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by CTD
02-05-2008 7:26 PM


Re: Enough Already
quote:
For the rest, here's a Spin Recognition Tip: If they try to redefine either "mutation" or "recombination" to make them synonymous, they're up to no good. Mutations are what happens when something goes wrong. Recombination is what happens by design. Tip number 2: It's not "random". You can't randomly mix up DNA and get... well you won't even get life, if you want the truth. It seems random because people haven't figured it all out. Any time they figure out a tiny element of what's going on, they write a paper or a book like those on the list. If it were random, that list wouldn't exist.
I'm detecting a lot of spin here!
Recombination is pretty random - where it happens is not fixed at all (and neither the normal mechanisms of mutation or recombination "randomly mix up" DNA). More, recombination is unusual in bacteria because bacteria are haploid - they require a source of additional genetic material before recombination can occur. So what is the evidence that recombination rather than mutation is the source of the resistance ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by CTD, posted 02-05-2008 7:26 PM CTD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by CTD, posted 02-07-2008 1:57 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 90 of 121 (454462)
02-07-2008 7:49 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by CTD
02-07-2008 1:57 AM


Re: Enough Already
quote:
My inability to predict a grandmaster's moves on the chessboard does not make them random. Your inability to predict where recombination will take place does not make it random.
Yet another grandmaster would be far more successful at predicting the moves - because they are not random. But experts cannot predict where recombination will occur.
quote:
And what are "normal mechanisms of mutation"? How can that which is normal produce abnormality? And if we were to call mutations "normal", what word would we use to designate that which is not mutated?
Your response is based on confusing the mechanism with its output. To call the mechanisms normal is not to call any specific result they produce "normal".
quote:
As for bacteria requiring a source of additional genetic material before recombination can occur, I've been informed otherwise by more than one source I consider to be more reliable.
Then perhaps you can provide references. Here's mine Recombination in Bacteria
It may seem somewhat surprising that bacteria can undergo recombination. After all, as was outlined in the module on recombination, the process requires two homologous DNA molecules, and bacteria have only one chromosome (and are therefore haploid). Bacteria, however, have mechanisms by which they can 'obtain' extra DNA, which creates opportunities for recombination to occur
quote:
And would you really agree with Taz that the same mutation is going to crop up fresh time after time, in spite of enormous odds against it? That right there should be a tip-off that it cannot be a mutation, but must be either the result of an exchange mechanism or recombination. Please try to resist your conditioning.
I'd say that it is better than your idea that recombination is responsible. However there's no need for the SAME mutation to crop up each time. You make the mistake of assuming that only one possible mutation could increase resistance to an antibiotic.
But why would recombination do any better ? And where is your evidence ? What is the source of the DNA for recombination or exchange ?
I'll add that the idea that I have been "conditioned" into not unquestioningly beleive whatever you say is even more laughable.
Here's an actual study showing that disablng a mechanism that generates mutations prevents the development of antibiotic resistance. That's a lot more than you've offered.
Inhibition of Mutation and Combating the Evolution of Antibiotic Resistance
In this work, we show that preventing induction of the SOS response by interfering with the activity of the protease LexA renders pathogenic Escherichia coli unable to evolve resistance in vivo to ciprofloxacin or rifampicin, important quinolone and rifamycin antibiotics
quote:
I notice a couple of things. If you had said 'unpredictable' instead of 'random' you would have been correct. If you had said 'most common mechanisms of mutation' instead of 'normal mechanisms of mutation' you would have been accurate. Remedy these, and your post has a lot less potential to mislead. So which post was it that set of the spin detector, mine or yours?
Yours. Since the changes you suggest make no difference to my post - unless YOU intend to spin them - you've got no real basis for your accusation. On the other hand there's plenty of spin coming from you - "Try to resist your conditioning" indeed !

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by CTD, posted 02-07-2008 1:57 AM CTD has not replied

  
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