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Author Topic:   Evolution for Dummies and Christians
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6486 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 257 of 299 (266777)
12-08-2005 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 256 by Carico
12-08-2005 10:02 AM


Great. So we agree. Random mutation occurs.
And you can also see how one group can change to the point where it can no longer interbreed with a previous group?
Please answer this question as well.
Once we agree here. I can explain to you how random mutation works.
This message has been edited by Yaro, 12-08-2005 10:04 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by Carico, posted 12-08-2005 10:02 AM Carico has not replied

Carico
Inactive Member


Message 258 of 299 (266778)
12-08-2005 10:05 AM


I'd like to qualify my answer. Mutations can "appear" to be random, but there is always a reason for them even if humans don't know what it is. So no, I don't believe in random mutation. I believe that mutation happenes even though we might not know what caused it.

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by Yaro, posted 12-08-2005 10:10 AM Carico has not replied

Yaro
Member (Idle past 6486 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 259 of 299 (266782)
12-08-2005 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by Carico
12-08-2005 10:05 AM


I'd like to qualify my answer. Mutations can "appear" to be random, but there is always a reason for them even if humans don't know what it is. So no, I don't believe in random mutation. I believe that mutation happenes even though we might not know what caused it.
I can agree with that, sure. There are many factors that go into gene copying. We certainly can't pinpoint them all! So yes.
I am also a determinst. So I don't see a problem with your view on this
So now, the population change issue. We now agree that a population CAN change to the point where they can no longer interbreed with the previous population?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by Carico, posted 12-08-2005 10:05 AM Carico has not replied

Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 260 of 299 (266783)
12-08-2005 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by Carico
12-08-2005 9:49 AM


Please, Carico, start listening for a change
Carico,
I am telling you officially:
No one is suggesting anything about humans mating with animals.
If you come back with that argument again, after reading this, then everybody will know for certain that you don't listen.
Now, could you just shut up for a while, and take you fingers out of your ears? Please, listen to Yaro, answering only yes or no. No buts, no insinuations, no jumping to conclusions, just yes or no.
Please?
{added by edit: sorry if this is a bit out of line, the conversation has moved on since I started writing this message.}
This message has been edited by Parasomnium, 08-Dec-2005 03:13 PM

"We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further." - Richard Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by Carico, posted 12-08-2005 9:49 AM Carico has not replied

Carico
Inactive Member


Message 261 of 299 (266785)
12-08-2005 10:13 AM


Everything in the universe happens for a reason because the universe is based on cause-effect. That is the basic principle that scienitsts rely on for logic, how electricity works, how nuclear energy works, how each cell works, how gravity works, and on and on. Yet scientists at the same time say things are random and there is no design! This is an oxymoron. But this is what happens when people defy God and try to play God themselves. Endless contradictions that lead them back to the same questions because they admit their previous theories were incorrect. This is just a game to deny God and people who have the audacity to think they know better than God will indeed look foolish. As Jesus said; "He who exalts himself will be humbled." And that has been shown to be true in every scientific theory that contradicts God's laws. When scientists agree with God, they will always be right. When they disagree with him they will always be wrong and look foolish as well. I really do have to go somewhere and will be back later.
This message has been edited by Carico, 12-08-2005 10:14 AM

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by AdminNWR, posted 12-08-2005 10:24 AM Carico has not replied

AdminNWR
Inactive Member


Message 262 of 299 (266789)
12-08-2005 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 261 by Carico
12-08-2005 10:13 AM


That debate offer from Yaro
Carico,
Yaro has kindly offered to have a "Great Debate" with you.
In a "Great Debate", only you and Yaro would be discussing. You would not have to answer the same thing several times to several different people. You could concentrate on Yaro's answers, and she would be able to better explain to you what evolutionists really believe and where they agree with you.
I think you could learn a lot in a one-on-one debate. And maybe we could learn something from you, too. It would also be easier on you than your current open debating, since you would only need to respond to one person.
Our Great Debates are pretty informal, and often can be quite friendly (even though the debaters disagree).
Can you let us know if you would like to have a one on one debate setup between just you and Yaro.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by Carico, posted 12-08-2005 10:13 AM Carico has not replied

FliesOnly
Member (Idle past 4135 days)
Posts: 797
From: Michigan
Joined: 12-01-2003


Message 263 of 299 (266791)
12-08-2005 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 237 by Carico
12-08-2005 8:03 AM


Re: Learning by taking the time to read
Carico writes:
So now are you saying that apes did not turn into humans and we are not descendants of apes?
Correct. Apes did not turn into humans nor are we their descendants. What we say is that apes and humans share a common ancestor.
Carico writes:
And you have no patience with ME?
I never said that.
Carico writes:
You guys can't even agree on a premise! Or you change it as fast as the weather. But that's what happens when the premise is a lie.
What exactly is our premise? In the first sentence, you say we have no premise. In the next sentence you say we constantly change our premise. And in the third sentence you say our premise is a lie. Wow, I'm impressed...three consecutive contradictory sentences.
You need to relax a bit and maybe do some reading about the ToE. You seem to have some typical creationist’s ideas about the theory and claims made by evolutionary biologists. Your "apes to man" argument is one such example. I'll repeat this so we are clear...Nowhere in the ToE is such a claim supported nor does any evolutionary biologist makes such a claim.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by Carico, posted 12-08-2005 8:03 AM Carico has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by Wounded King, posted 12-08-2005 10:35 AM FliesOnly has replied

Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 264 of 299 (266795)
12-08-2005 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by FliesOnly
12-08-2005 10:29 AM


Re: Learning by taking the time to read
Correct. Apes did not turn into humans nor are we their descendants. What we say is that apes and humans share a common ancestor.
Would it not be better to say that modern apes did not turn into humans nor are we their descendants. The last common ancestor of 'apes' and humans would almost certainly be classified as an ape. Taxonomically after all humans are still classified as apes.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by FliesOnly, posted 12-08-2005 10:29 AM FliesOnly has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by FliesOnly, posted 12-08-2005 11:12 AM Wounded King has not replied

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 265 of 299 (266800)
12-08-2005 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by Yaro
12-08-2005 8:42 AM


Confusing words
Carico, again, no one is saying humans came from an ape.
To be fair, Yaro, we (as a group) have been using words hastily in ways that could easily appear both contradictory and are confusing.
"Ape" is not a technical term and is not well defined in this discussion. Carico has been told humans are apes, did not come from apes and did come from ape like creatures. All of which are true because the word "ape" is used in different ways. Certainly a receipe for confusion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by Yaro, posted 12-08-2005 8:42 AM Yaro has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by Yaro, posted 12-08-2005 11:07 AM NosyNed has not replied

Yaro
Member (Idle past 6486 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 266 of 299 (266804)
12-08-2005 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 265 by NosyNed
12-08-2005 10:58 AM


Re: Confusing words
Definitions:
Ape = Any member of the order primates.
Modern-Apes = Commonly denotes any currently existing, non-human, member of the order primates.
Ape-Like Ancestor = An ancient member of the order primates which possesed both human and modern-ape qualities which lies in the direct chain of descent to modern H. Sapiens.
Common Ancestor = An ancient member of the order primates from which descend modern-Apes, the human Ape-Like ancestor, and humans themselves.
ABE: An 'order' is a mid-level taxanomic rank. Traditionaly it follows directly after the higher-level rank 'class' (though there are finer grained ranks in-between). An example of a class would be mammalia 'mammals' an order would be 'primates'. A rough equivocation would be "types of mammals" though, of course, the distinction is much more technical than this.
Clear? Anything anyone else would like to add?
This message has been edited by Yaro, 12-08-2005 11:23 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by NosyNed, posted 12-08-2005 10:58 AM NosyNed has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by robinrohan, posted 12-08-2005 11:12 AM Yaro has not replied
 Message 269 by Parasomnium, posted 12-08-2005 2:32 PM Yaro has not replied
 Message 272 by Carico, posted 12-08-2005 2:48 PM Yaro has replied

FliesOnly
Member (Idle past 4135 days)
Posts: 797
From: Michigan
Joined: 12-01-2003


Message 267 of 299 (266807)
12-08-2005 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 264 by Wounded King
12-08-2005 10:35 AM


Re: Learning by taking the time to read
Wounded King writes:
Would it not be better to say that modern apes did not turn into humans nor are we their descendants. The last common ancestor of 'apes' and humans would almost certainly be classified as an ape. Taxonomically after all humans are still classified as apes.
While technically, yes, you are correct and I'd agree, I will not accept that Carico, after an admitted thirty years of hearing about the ToE, does not understand the difference.
His line of argument is utter BS and it gets a bit tiring reading it over and over again. If he chooses to play word games, then fine, it only solidifies my belief that he doesn't want to hear anything about the ToE that contradicts his preconceived notions.
By the way, I've always wanted to point out that for reasons I cannot explain, I absolutely love your avatar.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by Wounded King, posted 12-08-2005 10:35 AM Wounded King has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 268 of 299 (266808)
12-08-2005 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 266 by Yaro
12-08-2005 11:07 AM


Re: Confusing words
Anything anyone else would like to add?
You might explain what an "order" is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by Yaro, posted 12-08-2005 11:07 AM Yaro has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-08-2005 2:34 PM robinrohan has not replied

Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 269 of 299 (266868)
12-08-2005 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by Yaro
12-08-2005 11:07 AM


Extra info
Anything anyone else would like to add?
Carico spoke of her husband, hence she is a woman, unless she is a Christian fundamentalist married homosexual, which is rather unlikely.
So, let's all use the proper personal pronouns when mentioning her.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by Yaro, posted 12-08-2005 11:07 AM Yaro has not replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3918 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 270 of 299 (266869)
12-08-2005 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Modulous
06-10-2005 12:38 PM


Re: Lunar month
well. the moon has like a 14 year expanded cycle... our months only sort of correlate. they are far better correlated to the 365.25 day year. and we have 30 and 31 day months cause some roman emperors thought they were more important than others. or some other ridiculous mythology.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Modulous, posted 06-10-2005 12:38 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by Modulous, posted 12-08-2005 3:00 PM macaroniandcheese has not replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3918 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 271 of 299 (266870)
12-08-2005 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by robinrohan
12-08-2005 11:12 AM


Re: Confusing words
kingdom
phylum
class
order
family
genus
species
they're artificially assigned categories used to identify living things and how similar or dissimilar they are.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by robinrohan, posted 12-08-2005 11:12 AM robinrohan has not replied

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