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Author Topic:   Lack of Human varieties. Genetic "cleansing" through history?
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1488 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 7 of 21 (297679)
03-23-2006 11:01 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by SantaClaus
03-17-2006 9:18 PM


What happened to neanderthal and the others we are beginning to learn of? Is it possible that they were killed off?
Well, the fact that they're not here now would seem to suggest that they were, indeed, killed off.
Or did you mean by homo sapiens? That's possible, sure. Going from a question in the first post, what makes you think that doesn't constitute a kind of evolution?

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 Message 3 by SantaClaus, posted 03-17-2006 9:18 PM SantaClaus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by SantaClaus, posted 03-24-2006 8:28 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1488 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 12 of 21 (298034)
03-25-2006 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by SantaClaus
03-24-2006 8:28 PM


Evolution isnt a killing off of a species.
No, extinction is part of evolution. Look in the fossil record - over 99% of the species we know from fossils are completely extinct. Extinction is largely the ultimate destination of any one species, so I'd say that's definately part of evolution.
Its a gradual mutation.
There's no such thing as a "gradual mutation." Mutations are basically instantaneous.

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 Message 10 by SantaClaus, posted 03-24-2006 8:28 PM SantaClaus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by carini, posted 03-25-2006 12:49 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 17 by SantaClaus, posted 03-27-2006 1:28 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1488 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 15 of 21 (298084)
03-25-2006 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by carini
03-25-2006 12:49 PM


But mutation of a species into another species is gradual.
Again, species don't mutate. Genes mutate. Species evolve; when they become new species, that process is called "speciation" and it can indeed be gradual. It can also be sudden.

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1488 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 19 of 21 (298739)
03-27-2006 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by SantaClaus
03-27-2006 1:28 PM


I'm not talking about extinction from an inability to adapt to a changing environment.
Like CS said, that's exactly what you're talking about. "Environment" doesn't mean "the scenery", it refers to the area where you live and the other creatures that inhabit it. Organisms adapt to things like predation and disease - other creatures - as much as they might adapt themselves to hot or cold climes.
I'm talking about ethnic cleansing, i.e. murder of a whole "kind".
These aren't ethnicities we're talking about, though. These aren't two different races of Homo sapiens; these are two different species that may or may not have even been interfertile.
But according to DNA, there was no interbreeding.
Well, I'm not sure the jury isn't still out on that. A lot of the studies have been criticised for a biased methodology where anytime human DNA is detected in Neanderthal samples, it's assumed to be sample contamination from handlers and excavaters. If that assumption is erroneous then the studies might be throwing out genuine human sequences in Neanderthal DNA by mistake. Not likely, but possible. I don't even know for sure how you would tell the difference between lab contamination and actual Homo sapiens sequences in N. DNA.
Neanderthal died on its own, and how and why, no one knows why.
They were probably out-competed for resources, if not outright killed in interspecific warfare. I agree with you that hypotheses that N. "blended in" to our gene pool are speculative at best and supported by little to no evidence.

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 Message 17 by SantaClaus, posted 03-27-2006 1:28 PM SantaClaus has replied

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 Message 20 by SantaClaus, posted 03-27-2006 4:16 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1488 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 21 of 21 (298773)
03-27-2006 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by SantaClaus
03-27-2006 4:16 PM


So you're saying that Hitlers "final solution" was evolution in play? The jews were unfit for survival? They were just as fit for survival as the germans, biologically speaking.
I have no idea what you're talking about, here. If you expect me to be able to draw the precise line between evolutionary determinism and personal initiative, you expect far too much from an internet forum.
The fact is, Hitler's genocide had a measurable effect on the gene pool. We can examine it in evolutionary terms because it resulted in a change in allele frequencies. Does that mean than I'm sweeping the crimes of the Holocaust under a scientific rug, or trying to let Hitler off the hook? Of course not. Don't try to bait me or paint me as some kind of anti-Semite.
Are we all saying that evolution is NOT biological in nature all the time?
No idea what you're talking about, still.
The jews werent being killed off because of a biological inferiority.
"Inferiority" has no meaning in regards to biology.
Given the fact that we have seen this happen, who is to say that homo sapiens didnt wipe out homo erectus and neanderthal because they were different, and not for control of resources?
Just the observation that genocides don't occur because people are threatened, but because people are made to believe that they are threatened as a pretense to sieze the resources of another group. Look to the Sudan, to Darfur. What do you think the ganjaweed are after? They're not slaughtering a defenseless people because they fear them; they're slaughtering them in order to take their lands, livestock, and whatever else they want from a people it was convinient to get people to regard as some kind of threat.
Evolution weeds out the weak. Homo Sapiens takes mother nature in its own hands and weeds out the "weak"....even though these "weak", are not weak in biological terms.
Still no idea what you're talking about here. "Weak in biological terms"? What does that even mean? What's your objective measure for "weakness"?
Suppose we had a competition between Ewoks and allosaurs. Any one Ewok is no match for any one allosaur - the allosaurs have the superior strength, endurance, and ferocity - but many Ewoks can work together to build traps, leverage natural forces like gravity, and steal technology from the Rebel Alliance. No group of allosaurs can do the same thing no matter how many of them there are - they don't even have the forelimb stregth to manipulate their environment.
Who is strong and who is weak? These words have no meaning in biology. Who is the more fit? Well, that depends on who wins. If the allosaurs wipe out the Ewoks, the allosaurs were clearly more fit. If the number of Ewoks comes to exceed the number of allosaurs, it must have been the Ewoks that were more fit. If your buddy has 20 kids that survive to adulthood, and you have 2, your buddy is more fit than you, no matter the fact that you work out at the gym and he sits on his butt and eats Cheetos.
Homo Sapiens does not flow with the laws of nature like everything else.
Still have no idea what you're talking about. I have a brain but it doesn't allow me to violate the laws of physics. It simply allows me to think ahead and use language.
What is all the talk about possible infertility? Saying "they may or may not have been infertile" is like saying "I'm either dead or not dead". If there is no evidence to support it, it should be left alone.
Well, there is some evidence to support it, like the lack of any "Neanderthal battlefields" or anything. And how did Homo sapiens kill off a species with a larger brain, bigger muscles, and possibly more developed culture in the first place? The idea that Homo sapiens extinguished the Neanderthal isn't immediately obvious. The idea that we simply merged genes with them is still plausible if the studies that claim no Neanderthal DNA are inconclusive. Probably not correct, but still plausible.

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