John A. (Salty) Davison - The Case For Instant Evolution

Salty, there is a problem with the following statement'

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By the way, if I can't muster some support for my evolutionary position in the next day or so, I will conclude that I am playing to an empty house.

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The house may not be empty, they may just be unimpressed with the performance. I have started your manifesto and I have to say that so far I am less than impressed by your arguements. And I am not an adherent to the strict Neo-Darwinian viewpoint, although I think that it is a major component in the mechanism for evolution. One example, so far I find your reliance on point mutations as a fatal flaw in the Neo-Darwinian theory to be in error as point mutations are only one of the many forms of mutation which occur. Insertions and deletions are almost as common and misalignments are probably more common. I do not have the numbers here in front of me at the moment, anyone out there have them readily available? And these mutations can have quite widespread effects, the chromosomal alterations that you refer to generally have wide spread effects because of the changes in control, but smaller deletions, insertions or inversions can have effects just as profound if they occur in major control regions.Another point; it is not a logical neccessity, as you stated in your manifesto, for there to be a creator, just as there is no logical neccessity for the evolutionary process to be guided. There is, in fact, no logical neccessity from a philosophical point of view for EITHER viewpoint.------------------
"Chance favors the prepared mind." L. Pasteur
Taz

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If you are going to deny me the possibility of a Creator, don't read any furthere in the Manifesto.

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Salty, first off I will try a second time to be polite. If you reread my post you will see that I did not do any such thing as you claim. I merely corrected a logic error which you made, namely that the existence of a creator is not a logical conclusion based on your statements. Frankly, they do not deal with the existence or non-existence of a creator at all, ie they neither are capable of proving or disproving a creator. Second off, I will finish the manifesto as I get time. However, my studies to date appear to be leading me in the opposite direction to the one that you state.------------------
"Chance favors the prepared mind." L. Pasteur
Taz

Salty, neither ontogony nor phylogony are miracles. I have worked with more than enough developmental biologists to know that. If you feel that you have evidence to back this up in your manifesto then I will look for it.Second, so what if Pasteur was a vitalist. Galeleo was a catholic, Newton was an anglican, as was Darwin (although maybe not a very good one at the end). Einstein was jewish, so what? And from what I have seen so far you have not eliminated selection.------------------
"Chance favors the prepared mind." L. Pasteur
Taz

Post 200

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I want someone to show me a fact which I have misrepresented in my papers or the Manifesto.

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From the Manfesto

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Perhaps the most compelling feature for the Darwinists resides in their persistent conviction that all of evolution is the result of blind chance.

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this is false, the mutational aspect is based on the differential probability of mutation throughout the genome, the selection is based on varying levels of reproductive and environmental success based on changing environmental pressure. While these are not pre-determined (as far as we can tell) or controlled by outside forces (ditto) they are not purely random.Salty, just because you can not tell what is going to happen next does not mean that something is purely random. Please review probability, chaos and complex systems. Either that or prove that it is random.------------------
"Chance favors the prepared mind." L. Pasteur
Taz

Salty, I have to say that for someone who posts as a person knoledgable about evolutionary theory you make a lot of mistake in that regard. Natural Selection is a FILTER. Look at the most recent ideas put forth by Niles Eldredge concerning larger scale systems and the role of the environment as components of selective pressure for a good example of this. The preventing of change which you refer to appears to me to be standard statistical stasis brought about by the application of Hardy-Weinburg genetics, I do not care if you disagree with the role of population genetics, you will have to do more than disagree, you will have to show data. Now honestly, I did a quick perusal of your manifesto and saw none that would ovethrough the accepted role of population genetics. Is it somplace else?As to your rather strident comments re: religion, you brought up religion and vitalism first, not I. I merely responded to a logical fallacy in your manifesto in my first post to you. Your claim that a creator is a logical neccessity is not born out by the supports of your own statements within the manifesto. You are of course free to believe what you want but I can and will call you on logical fallicies. The same holds true for your comments concerning the "atheist materialism that characterizes the Darwinian model", the study of evolution is neither pro nor anti diest, although its proponents can fall into either camp. You are mixing the private or personal beliefs of the people with the driving concepts behind the theory. As to the other biological thinkers, I have read a great number of them, most of whom agree that some form of natural selection plays a key role in evolution.By the way, I saw yout complaining earlier about the way that you were being treated on this board. I have been polite, direct and supplied reasons for my statements for the start; you have gone off onto tangents and done a number of little rants which appeared to bear little relationship to my comments. I can now see why you get so little respect from some of the normally polite people on this board, I won't go into some of the people who are normally not so polite.------------------
"Chance favors the prepared mind." L. Pasteur
Taz

Admooseus (sounds kind of latin doesn't it). I think that you might have a point. If I get time to do a better review of this manifesto maybe I will post more on it later if the thread reopens, but reasoned discussion appears to have fled the field for the time being.------------------
"Chance favors the prepared mind." L. Pasteur
Taz

just keep your inner Shrike under control, OK ------------------
"Chance favors the prepared mind." L. Pasteur
Taz

Salty, I was going to let this die out after the posts from last night, and in response to Adminnemooseus's request that there be no parting pot shots, but after seeing your rant this morning I have to respond. First, for you to make a final spurious rant after agreeing to close the thread is bad enough. If you had just got on and Stated your position and or reasons forthem it would have been enough. But to state, without basis, that your positions were "as clear as day" and "require no further explaination from me" are so arrogant as to be incredible. You have answered NONE of the questions posed to you by people who have obviously read your manifesto. And as for error of fact, numerous ones have been pointed out including a few by myself, both in the logic of some of your statements as well as your mis-representation of standard, modern, neo-darwinian theory (Post 204). So there is another falsehood, error or ommision from you. I will finish your manifesto and, if I find anything of value, I will ask Adminimoosus to let me open a positive thread. But I would not hold my breath if I were you. Adminnemooseus, sorry if this has put you in a difficult position but I could not let his spurious assertions and accusations go without a reply. Go ahead and take whatever action you feel is justified and I will try to understand.------------------
"Chance favors the prepared mind." L. Pasteur
Taz[This message has been edited by Dr_Tazimus_maximus, 03-26-2003]

Ya know Salty, for someone with nothing more to say you sure say it a lot. Actually, I agree that a hiatus is a good idea. This is a discussion board, and part of that is anwering questions. You really need to work on that aspect a bit, then maybe you can get you ideas accross better. Just a suggestion.------------------
"Chance favors the prepared mind." L. Pasteur
Taz