Thanks Dr. your right, sorry 'bout my quick unthoughthrough calculations. So instead of 109 we have 108 changes. Doesn't really change anything.There no doubt exist natural laws, but once this fine reason of ours was corrupted, it corrupted everything.
Re: Analogy fails Lucy, there just isn't anything in your post worthy of a response.
You say Coyote, that you have bones of people antediluvian. Then you say that you have can relate these to contemporary tribes. Please show me the evidence. I was brought up a scientist, still am. But things these days don't seem to add up.
There no doubt exist natural laws, but once this fine reason of ours was corrupted, it corrupted everything.
Macro-evolution is denied by fundamentalists on religious grounds, but accepted by biologists and other scientists most familiar with the field.
For me, the rejection of macro-evolution has nothing to do with religion but everything to do with science. First of all, the majority of macro-evolution proponents also believe life formed spontaneously in a primordial soup. Some try to dress it up and say on a crystalline substrate. This belief provides insight into the failed foundational mindset which extends beyond the origins of life and into the origins of species. There is a continuum in the philosophy which stretches in all directions to include star and planet formation. (i.e. hydrogen gas “evolves” into heavier elements which “evolve” into stars and planets) All of the mechanisms of evolution, whether they are chemical, biological, or cosmological, have the same foundation:
time + chance = increase in order
But “science” tells us just the opposite:
time + chance = decrease in order
The DNA inside of a cell is “information”. Such an occurrence begs the question, “What is the source of this information?” Energy from the Sun is not information nor is gravity. The Earth is virtually a closed system, so what do you attribute to the source for this highly complex information? Natural selection reduces information. Every time something is “picked”, that selection process narrows the field of variability. Another way of looking at it is like a quality-control worker on an assembly-line who inspects transistor radios. If a radio has a resistor that deviates too much from a particular value, the radio will not play and be rejected. By some chance, an out-of-tolerance resistor may cause the radio to play louder or quieter than normal, but this attribute is not an increase in information, but a difference in magnitude. If the worker retains such a unit, the variability increases in the radio population, but the “complexity” is not changed. For “macro-evolution” to work, the radio must gain a new feature that is useful to the consumer like a headphone jack or a digital tuner instead of a manual dial. I contend that without a deliberate, focused, and inventive engineering department, these features will never be realized by the quality-control worker. If you think they can, then perhaps your idea may find usefulness in the real world where corporations can increase their competiveness by eliminating their engineering departments.
As you can see, I’ve not resorted to “religion” in articulating my response. Why should I? Your idea is destined to fail because it violates what we see in the natural world.
If fundamentalists want to show that micro-evolution can't add up, over time, to macro-evolution they need to show a mechanism that prevents such change. I have yet to see such a mechanism proposed and withstand scientific testing.
How about the mechanism in a cell that corrects copy errors? This will resist your mechanism.
But what’s worse, you have a more fundamental problem: studies on human mtDNA and mutation rates indicate that the first man lived about 6000 years ago. You simply don’t have enough time for your mechanism to perform its magic.
And your analogy, like the tornado in a junkyard, fails because living organisms don't react in the same way as do manufactured items.
Living organisms DO react in many ways as manufactured items. Living cells react adversely to too much heat just as does a spring which looses its temper to too much heat. Light can burn the phosphorous on a CRT screen just like it can destroy a retina. Water can reverse the compaction of beach sand just like it can reverse the formation of proteins. Gravity can wear out the shock absorbers and rubber tires on a car just as it does the knee joints and skin on the feet. Those who have studied “physical chemistry” know that there is an inextricable link between “living organisms” and physical components such as atoms, molecules, compounds, and “manufactured items”. Your “living organism” will have to overcome the ill effects of entropy just as will your automobile if you want to continue driving it. You’ll have to take your automobile to a knowledgeable repairman unless of course some genius designed it to repair itself.
You gotta love Dr.Adequate's arrogance and how he never was told even once (since I'm here) to be more respectful by the admins ...
I know this is some sort of highway of dicussion where some people don't put their flasher, but come on you won't have more incendiary comments than some of the ones Dr.Adequate is saying sometimes ...
I would like for you to tell me what defines a scientist please ... (and no: a scientist is someone who does science plz)
Isn't that rather like asking me what defines a cobbler --- but with none of that talk about mending shoes?
Surely doing science is pretty much the sine qua non of being a scientist. Perhaps we might add the qualification that this should be their profession (as indeed with the definition of cobbler).
I don't quite see what you're asking of me here. But consider, for example, the following:
Since its first appearance on Earth, life has taken many forms, all of which continue to evolve, in ways which palaeontology and the modern biological and biochemical sciences are describing and independently confirming with increasing precision.
Ok, just wanted to be sure before I started naming scientists who accepts the idea of special creation ...
Dr Paul Ackerman, Psychologist Dr E. Theo Agard, Medical Physics Dr James Allan, Geneticist Dr Steve Austin, Geologist Dr S.E. Aw, Biochemist Dr Thomas Barnes, Physicist Dr Geoff Barnard, Immunologist Dr Don Batten, Plant physiologist, tropical fruit expert Dr Donald Baumann, Solid State Physics, Professor of Biology and Chemistry, Cedarville University Dr John Baumgardner, Electrical Engineering, Space Physicist, Geophysicist, expert in supercomputer modeling of plate tectonics Dr Jerry Bergman, Psychologist Dr Kimberly Berrine, Microbiology & Immunology Prof. Vladimir Betina, Microbiology, Biochemistry & Biology Dr Raymond G. Bohlin, Biologist Dr Andrew Bosanquet, Biology, Microbiology Edward A. Boudreaux, Theoretical Chemistry Dr David Boylan, Chemical Engineer Prof. Stuart Burgess, Engineering and Biomimetics, Professor of Design & Nature, Head of Department, Mechanical Engineering, University of Bristol (UK) Prof. Linn E. Carothers, Associate Professor of Statistics Dr Robert W. Carter, PhD Marine Biology Dr David Catchpoole, Plant Physiologist (read his testimony) Prof. Sung-Do Cha, Physics Dr Eugene F. Chaffin, Professor of Physics Dr Choong-Kuk Chang, Genetic Engineering Prof. Jeun-Sik Chang, Aeronautical Engineering Dr Xidong Chen, Solid State Physics, Assistant Professor of Physics, Cedarville University Dr Donald Chittick, Physical Chemist Prof. Chung-Il Cho, Biology Education Dr John M. Cimbala, Mechanical Engineering Dr Harold Coffin, Palaeontologist Dr Bob Compton, DVM Dr Ken Cumming, Biologist Dr Jack W. Cuozzo, Dentist Dr William M. Curtis III, Th.D., Th.M., M.S., Aeronautics & Nuclear Physics Dr Malcolm Cutchins, Aerospace Engineering Dr Lionel Dahmer, Analytical Chemist Dr Raymond V. Damadian, M.D., Pioneer of magnetic resonance imaging Dr Chris Darnbrough, Biochemist Dr Nancy M. Darrall, Botany Dr Bryan Dawson, Mathematics Dr Douglas Dean, Biological Chemistry Prof. Stephen W. Deckard, Assistant Professor of Education Dr David A. DeWitt, Biology, Biochemistry, Neuroscience Dr Don DeYoung, Astronomy, atmospheric physics, M.Div Dr Geoff Downes, Creationist Plant Physiologist Dr Ted Driggers, Operations research Robert H. Eckel, Medical Research Dr André Eggen, Geneticist Dr Leroy Eimers, Atmospheric Science, Professor of Physics and Mathematics, Cedarville University Prof. Dennis L. Englin, Professor of Geophysics Prof. Danny Faulkner, Astronomy Dr Dennis Flentge, Physical Chemistry, Professor of Chemistry and Chair of the Department of Science and Mathematics, Cedarville University Prof. Carl B. Fliermans, Professor of Biology Prof. Dwain L. Ford, Organic Chemistry Prof. Robert H. Franks, Associate Professor of Biology Dr Alan Galbraith, Watershed Science Dr Paul Giem, Medical Research Dr Maciej Giertych, Geneticist Dr Duane Gish, Biochemist Dr Werner Gitt, Information Scientist Dr Steven Gollmer, Atmospheric Science, Professor of Physics, Cedarville University Dr D.B. Gower, Biochemistry Dr Dianne Grocott, Psychiatrist Dr Stephen Grocott, Industrial Chemist Dr Donald Hamann, Food Scientist Dr Barry Harker, Philosopher Dr Charles W. Harrison, Applied Physicist, Electromagnetics Dr John Hartnett, Physicist and Cosmologist Dr Mark Harwood, Satellite Communications Dr Joe Havel, Botanist, Silviculturist, Ecophysiologist Dr George Hawke, Environmental Scientist Dr Steven Hayes, Nuclear Scientist Dr Margaret Helder, Science Editor, Botanist Dr Larry Helmick, Organic Chemistry, Professor of Chemistry, Cedarville University Dr Harold R. Henry, Engineer Dr Jonathan Henry, Astronomy Dr Joseph Henson, Entomologist Dr Robert A. Herrmann, Professor of Mathematics, US Naval Academy Dr Andrew Hodge, Head of the Cardiothoracic Surgical Service Dr Kelly Hollowell, Molecular and Cellular Pharmacologist Dr Ed Holroyd, III, Atmospheric Science Dr Bob Hosken, Biochemistry Dr George F. Howe, Botany Dr Neil Huber, Physical Anthropologist Dr Russell Humphreys, Physicist Dr James A. Huggins, Professor and Chair, Department of Biology Evan Jamieson, Hydrometallurgy George T. Javor, Biochemistry Dr Pierre Jerlström, Creationist Molecular Biologist Dr Arthur Jones, Biology Dr Jonathan W. Jones, Plastic Surgeon Dr Raymond Jones, Agricultural Scientist Dr Valery Karpounin, Mathematical Sciences, Logics, Formal Logics Dr Dean Kenyon, Biologist Prof. Gi-Tai Kim, Biology Prof. Harriet Kim, Biochemistry Prof. Jong-Bai Kim, Biochemistry Prof. Jung-Han Kim, Biochemistry Prof. Jung-Wook Kim, Environmental Science Prof. Kyoung-Rai Kim, Analytical Chemistry Prof. Kyoung-Tai Kim, Genetic Engineering Prof. Young-Gil Kim, Materials Science Prof. Young In Kim, Engineering Dr John W. Klotz, Biologist Dr Vladimir F. Kondalenko, Cytology/Cell Pathology Dr Felix Konotey-Ahulu, Physician, leading expert on sickle-cell anemia Dr Leonid Korochkin, M.D., Genetics, Molecular Biology, Neurobiology Dr John K.G. Kramer, Biochemistry Dr Johan Kruger, Zoology Dr Wolfgang Kuhn, biologist and lecturer Dr Heather Kuruvilla, Plant Physiology, Senior Professor of Biology, Cedarville University Prof. Jin-Hyouk Kwon, Physics Prof. Myung-Sang Kwon, Immunology Dr John Leslie, Biochemist Prof. Lane P. Lester, Biologist, Genetics Dr Jean Lightner, Agriculture, Veterinary science Dr Jason Lisle, Astrophysicist Raúl E López, meteorologist Dr Alan Love, Chemist Dr Ian Macreadie, Molecular Biologist and Microbiologist Dr John Marcus, Molecular Biologist Dr George Marshall, Eye Disease Researcher Dr Ralph Matthews, Radiation Chemistry Dr Mark McClain, Inorganic Chemistry, Associate Professor of Chemistry, Cedarville University Dr John McEwan, Organic Chemistry Prof. Andy McIntosh, Combustion theory, aerodynamics Dr David Menton, Anatomist Dr Angela Meyer, Creationist Plant Physiologist Dr John Meyer, Physiologist Dr Douglas Miller, Professor of Chemistry, Cedarville University Dr Albert Mills, Reproductive Physiologist, Embryologist Robert T. Mitchell, specialist in Internal Medicine and active speaker on creation Colin W. Mitchell, Geography Dr John N. Moore, Science Educator Dr John W. Moreland, Mechanical Engineer and Dentist Dr Henry M. Morris, Hydrologist Dr John D. Morris, Geologist Dr Len Morris, Physiologist Dr Graeme Mortimer, Geologist Stanley A. Mumma, Architectural Engineering Prof. Hee-Choon No, Nuclear Engineering Dr Eric Norman, Biomedical researcher Dr David Oderberg, Philosopher Prof. John Oller, Linguistics Prof. Chris D. Osborne, Assistant Professor of Biology Dr John Osgood, Medical Practitioner Dr Charles Pallaghy, Botanist Dr Gary E. Parker, Biologist, Cognate in Geology (Paleontology) Dr David Pennington, Plastic Surgeon Dr Mathew Piercy, anaesthetist Dr Terry Phipps, Professor of Biology, Cedarville University Dr Jules H. Poirier, Aeronautics, Electronics Prof. Richard Porter Dr Georgia Purdom, Molecular Genetics Dr John Rankin, Cosmologist Dr A.S. Reece, M.D. Prof. J. Rendle-Short, Pediatrics Dr Jung-Goo Roe, Biology Dr David Rosevear, Chemist Dr Ariel A. Roth, Biology Dr Ron Samec, Astronomy Dr Jonathan D. Sarfati, Physical chemist / spectroscopist Dr Alicia (Lisa) Schaffner, Associate Professor of Biology, Cedarville University Dr Joachim Scheven Palaeontologist Dr Ian Scott, Educator Dr Saami Shaibani, Forensic Physicist Dr Young-Gi Shim, Chemistry Prof. Hyun-Kil Shin, Food Science Dr Mikhail Shulgin, Physics Dr Emil Silvestru, Geologist/karstologist Dr Roger Simpson, Engineer Dr Harold Slusher, Geophysicist Dr E. Norbert Smith, Zoologist Dr Andrew Snelling, Geologist Prof. Man-Suk Song, Computer Science Dr Timothy G. Standish, Biology Prof. James Stark, Assistant Professor of Science Education Prof. Brian Stone, Engineer Dr Esther Su, Biochemistry Dr Dennis Sullivan, Biology, surgery, chemistry, Professor of Biology, Cedarville University Dr Charles Taylor, Linguistics Dr Stephen Taylor, Electrical Engineering Dr Ker C. Thomson, Geophysics Dr Michael Todhunter, Forest Genetics Dr Lyudmila Tonkonog, Chemistry/Biochemistry Dr Royal Truman, Organic Chemist Dr Larry Vardiman, Atmospheric Science Prof. Walter Veith, Zoologist Dr Joachim Vetter, Biologist Dr Tas Walker, Mechanical Engineer and Geologist Dr Jeremy Walter, Mechanical Engineer Dr Keith Wanser, Physicist Dr Noel Weeks, Ancient History (also has B.Sc. in Zoology) Dr A.J. Monty White, Chemistry/Gas Kinetics Dr John Whitmore, Geologist/Paleontologist Dr Clifford Wilson, Psycholinguist and Archaeologist Dr Kurt Wise, Palaeontologist Dr Bryant Wood, Creationist Archaeologist Prof. Seoung-Hoon Yang, Physics Dr Thomas (Tong Y.) Yi, Ph.D., Creationist Aerospace & Mechanical Engineering Dr Ick-Dong Yoo, Genetics Dr Sung-Hee Yoon, Biology Dr Patrick Young, Chemist and Materials Scientist Prof. Keun Bae Yu, Geography Dr Henry Zuill, Biology
Those are only the ones who are alive today. Meaning they have access to all the present-day advancements in Evolution.
This is in response to your allegation that scientists reject creation. This list also does not count the scientists who do not believe in Neo-Darwinist evolution, such as Dr. Lee Spetner for example. It also does not include scientists who do not have a doctorate (which would surely triple that list)
We seem to have different ideas about what constitutes arrogance.
I think it's arrogant to lecture people on what "science tells us" without (obviously) having studied science, and when he must be more or less aware that people who have devoted their adult lifetimes to studying science disagree with him completely.
You seem to think it arrogant of me to point this out.
I would think that his little 'math error' wasn't because he was 'mathematically illeterate' as you called him, but rather a simple mental calculation error in my opinion.
Even if it was not, I would suggest that the dictionnary definition of arrogance would apply to your comment:
What you have written is indeed ridiculous. I'm going to guess either that you're mathematically illiterate or that you don't know the difference between the word "similarity" and the word "difference".
Biologists, who suffer from neither of these deficiencies, have done the actual math. It's not difficult.
I mean, come on, how low-ball of a comment was that, seriously ?
Oh yeah, and before I forget it, Biologists haven't done the math, population geneticists have ... (Unless of course, you don't know the difference between biology and genetics, in which case I will forgive your ignorance)
I am aware that a tiny minority of scientists are wrong. Heck, even some that have qualifications in relevant fields. And statistically, they must be fewer than the proportion of scientists who hear voices talking in their heads.
Let me know if any of them ever come up with any valid arguments.