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Author Topic:   Evolution Simplified
lfen
Member (Idle past 4705 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 59 of 170 (309998)
05-07-2006 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Hyroglyphx
05-06-2006 6:39 PM


Re: the selection of traits
Octopi DNA is different from human DNA. There is a gulf between the two that is inviolate. What that means is, if you have AB, you could concievably get BA, AA, or BB, but how in the world are you going to get ABC, if C doesn't exist somewhere in the genome already, even in junk DNA? But macroevolution is dependent on making a C where a C doesn't exist and moreover, can't exist.
Reading this I'm wondering if you are making the distinction between DNA the molecule and the sequences of the bases that construct the molecule?
I'm not sure what you meant by the "gulf being inviolate". The DNA sequences are certainly so different that you can't get an octopi sperm to fertilize a human egg.
Can you pick an example of two species that are closely related but incapable of interbreeding (definition of species) and then we look at how they diverge from a common ancestor to the point that their DNA was changed to the point of incompatiblity? Two different kinds of monkeys perhaps? or even two different kinds of fish. Snake and lizard?
I almost get the impression you might be thinking the Octopi write in Hebrew and Humans in Chinese say. Rather it's the same alphabet A,T,C,G. The sequences vary.
Alphabet is also misleading in a sense because DNA and RNA I think are more accurately thought of as templates for the assembly of proteins. They specify the sequence of amino acids that are linked to make proteins and we use the same amino acids as all life does just different organisms use them in differing quanities as to the differing proteins that are used in their organism.
New proteins come about when the sequence of the DNA is changed and that can happen for a number of reasons. You have only the 4 bases pair but in groups of 3 they specify one of 20 some amino acids that are chained to make, I've no idea how many proteins thousands certainly, hundreds of thousands?
The analogy to language is that with an alphabet of 26 letters we can make thousands of words, write thousands of books even different languages. The wide variation in life is built from a small number of smaller sub units that are shared by all life forms. The variety comes in the way these units are chained together.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Hyroglyphx, posted 05-06-2006 6:39 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Hyroglyphx, posted 05-07-2006 2:45 PM lfen has replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4705 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 61 of 170 (310000)
05-07-2006 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Hyroglyphx
05-06-2006 7:03 PM


Re: the selection of traits
Nemesis,
I would like to ask you to please break up long blocks of text. You had several paragraphs there. I have some visual problems. I did actually struggle through it and read the whole thing but it's so easy to enter blank lines to create paragraphs and makes this whole process so much easier.
I'll demonstrate in the quote box. You would probably have chosen different places to insert spaces. I'm just doing this to demostrate readibility as it effects comprehension. The spacing can also aid with comprehension by grouping your ideads into sub units.
WITH NO SPACING:
I think any evolutionist, by necessity, eventualy will have to rest their claims on the transfer and mutation of genes. The reason why they are so adamant on this point is that the theory would collapse without it. Mathematician and molecular biologist, Harold Morowitz, calculated the odds that just one paramecium arranging DNA by chance, is: 1 in 10 to the billionth power. To help aggrandize the enormity of this improbability, 10 to the 50th power is considered, ”absolute zero.’ When you reach absolute zero, it is so improbable that we might as well say that it is impossible. That's just to arrive at any lifeforms at all. But since the First Cause can never be witnessed again, lets just speak about already extant beings for the time being. The fact is most mutations are silent. They are mostly benign deletions from copying errors in the genes. Its important to note, however, that the only reason most mutations are benign is because of specific cells that serve to repair mutations. In fact, it is their only function. Therefore, in all actuality, all mutations are truly harmful, especially if these specific cells, themselves, are the product of a mutation. There would be nothing to stop these free radicals from culturing rogue, mutated cells without their assistance. We now know that genes are composed of DNA strands, a magnificently complex molecule. DNA is an encoded message or language. The language has four letters, which form 64, three letter words. The function of the gene acts as a blueprint to tell the cell how to build a particular protein, of which I already described in a previous post how astronmically improbable it is just to arrive at one protein. Anyway, the genes are provided with basic instructions for creating protein insulin, myoglobin, hemoglobin, etc. Though most mutations are neutral, a very large percentage is devastatingly harmful. A prime example of a harmful mutation would be cancer, which I already touched upon. In the most rare occasions, a mutation can be beneficial. This kind of mutation is not truly advantageous, however. For instance, many evolutionists use Sickle Cell Anemia as a prime example of a good mutation. It is premised upon the idea that the disease effects mostly the Negro population, and because the Negro population is greatest in the malaria stricken continent of Africa, it has served to benefit their survival, because SCA can act as a barrier to Malaria. They also cite that SCA only effects people adversely when it is carried through both the female and the male’s chromosomes. So, if the mutant gene is found in only one host, the individual is known as a ”carrier.’ He or she carries the gene and it serves as an immunity. What they fail to realize is, the more individuals that procreate, the greater and more frequent the disease will be, and the less the immunity will be. The ”immunity’ will literally be bred out of existance. Aside from this, its as if no one has taken into consideration how terrible this disease really is? So, you don’t have Malaria, but now you have Sickle Cell Anemia? I just don’t see how that is any better since SCA is a degenerative disease that prevents the proper oxygenation of cells. The red blood cells become deformed, taking the form of a crescent moon (hence the name, Sickle cell), and thus, prevent hemoglobin from properly passing through and oxygenating the body. If your cells do not receive the proper amount of oxygen then they will become ischemic. If the cells starve for oxygen, they die. If your cells die, you die. It’s as simple as that. So, that's how I disagree that mutation could be the propulsion of macroevolution. In other words, it effects reproduction because the more people breed, the more this disease will effect us by removing the immunity. Therefore, I don't agree that SCA, or any other mutation, could be advantageous.... (I'll be cautious here): There are no truly advantageous mutations that I know of and I've heard lots of testimonies on it.
WITH SPACING
I think any evolutionist, by necessity, eventualy will have to rest their claims on the transfer and mutation of genes. The reason why they are so adamant on this point is that the theory would collapse without it.
Mathematician and molecular biologist, Harold Morowitz, calculated the odds that just one paramecium arranging DNA by chance, is: 1 in 10 to the billionth power. To help aggrandize the enormity of this improbability, 10 to the 50th power is considered, ”absolute zero.’ When you reach absolute zero, it is so improbable that we might as well say that it is impossible.
That's just to arrive at any lifeforms at all. But since the First Cause can never be witnessed again, lets just speak about already extant beings for the time being. The fact is most mutations are silent. They are mostly benign deletions from copying errors in the genes. Its important to note, however, that the only reason most mutations are benign is because of specific cells that serve to repair mutations. In fact, it is their only function. Therefore, in all actuality, all mutations are truly harmful, especially if these specific cells, themselves, are the product of a mutation.
There would be nothing to stop these free radicals from culturing rogue, mutated cells without their assistance. We now know that genes are composed of DNA strands, a magnificently complex molecule. DNA is an encoded message or language. The language has four letters, which form 64, three letter words. The function of the gene acts as a blueprint to tell the cell how to build a particular protein, of which I already described in a previous post how astronmically improbable it is just to arrive at one protein.
Anyway, the genes are provided with basic instructions for creating protein insulin, myoglobin, hemoglobin, etc. Though most mutations are neutral, a very large percentage is devastatingly harmful. A prime example of a harmful mutation would be cancer, which I already touched upon.
In the most rare occasions, a mutation can be beneficial. This kind of mutation is not truly advantageous, however. For instance, many evolutionists use Sickle Cell Anemia as a prime example of a good mutation. It is premised upon the idea that the disease effects mostly the Negro population, and because the Negro population is greatest in the malaria stricken continent of Africa, it has served to benefit their survival, because SCA can act as a barrier to Malaria. They also cite that SCA only effects people adversely when it is carried through both the female and the male’s chromosomes.
So, if the mutant gene is found in only one host, the individual is known as a ”carrier.’ He or she carries the gene and it serves as an immunity. What they fail to realize is, the more individuals that procreate, the greater and more frequent the disease will be, and the less the immunity will be. The ”immunity’ will literally be bred out of existance. Aside from this, its as if no one has taken into consideration how terrible this disease really is?
So, you don’t have Malaria, but now you have Sickle Cell Anemia? I just don’t see how that is any better since SCA is a degenerative disease that prevents the proper oxygenation of cells. The red blood cells become deformed, taking the form of a crescent moon (hence the name, Sickle cell), and thus, prevent hemoglobin from properly passing through and oxygenating the body. If your cells do not receive the proper amount of oxygen then they will become ischemic. If the cells starve for oxygen, they die. If your cells die, you die. It’s as simple as that.
So, that's how I disagree that mutation could be the propulsion of macroevolution. In other words, it effects reproduction because the more people breed, the more this disease will effect us by removing the immunity. Therefore, I don't agree that SCA, or any other mutation, could be advantageous.... (I'll be cautious here): There are no truly advantageous mutations that I know of and I've heard lots of testimonies on it.
This is a sincere request. It will be much appreciated.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Hyroglyphx, posted 05-06-2006 7:03 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Hyroglyphx, posted 05-07-2006 2:56 PM lfen has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4705 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 67 of 170 (310016)
05-07-2006 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Hyroglyphx
05-07-2006 2:45 PM


Re: the selection of traits
Even if you were to use Artificial Intelligence to show that it can do it all on its own, it was still required of a programmer to insert the capability to begin with.
I am in awe of the complex interactions of the universe. Science gives me an appreciation for the scale and intricacy even intimacy that the universe exhibits from quantum level to the galactic phenomena. I don't propose to explain it (would be OT anyway) and you are quite welcome to your explanations. But it all does fit. Particles and forces make possible atoms, atoms making molecules and in the case of life molecules making proteins.
Do you agree that the universe is complex? And that science studies and attempts to understand the complexity manifested by observation, experimentation, and modeling?
But the kind of genetic tailoring macroevolution speaks of would be required of a Programmer to institute a new policy. Even if you were to use Artificial Intelligence to show that it can do it all on its own, it was still required of a programmer to insert the capability to begin with.
It appears we both see the universe as having the "capability to begin with". I don't know what you mean by new policy. To me it appears that the universe has one policy: that the diversity of the universe is based on common interacting elements. All molecules are made of atoms, all atoms of particles, etc.
I don't understand why you are saying there must be a "new policy". I mean if we only consider particles then atoms are like a new policy but they are there as a capability of the universe. Molecules are a new policy of sorts for atoms but again a capability of the universe. So proteins are a "new" policy, and then replicating proteins and then cells. At this point we know more about some of these "policies" then we do others.
Once we have cells using DNA and RNA to replicate themselves we have another capability of the universe. The interactions of matter and energy results in changes in these molecules and these changes in sequence result (among other things) in different proteins being synthesized. A change could result in a protein being synthesized that had never been synthesized before. Would this new protein be what you mean by a new policy?
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Hyroglyphx, posted 05-07-2006 2:45 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
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