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Author
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Topic: Evolution Simplified
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robinrohan
Inactive Member
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Message 76 of 170 (310695)
05-10-2006 8:46 AM
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Reply to: Message 1 by Chiroptera
05-03-2006 6:01 PM
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1. Fact: Most breeding organisms produce more offspring than is necessary to replace themselves. 2. Fact: The population of most species are not increasing. How do we know this?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1 by Chiroptera, posted 05-03-2006 6:01 PM | | Chiroptera has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 77 by Coragyps, posted 05-10-2006 9:12 AM | | robinrohan has replied |
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robinrohan
Inactive Member
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Message 78 of 170 (310700)
05-10-2006 9:17 AM
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Reply to: Message 77 by Coragyps
05-10-2006 9:12 AM
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Re:
Observation. How many robin eggs in a nest? Baby possums in a litter? Ok, I got that. What about the second fact?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 77 by Coragyps, posted 05-10-2006 9:12 AM | | Coragyps has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 79 by Coragyps, posted 05-10-2006 9:32 AM | | robinrohan has replied |
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robinrohan
Inactive Member
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Message 80 of 170 (310721)
05-10-2006 11:04 AM
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Reply to: Message 79 by Coragyps
05-10-2006 9:32 AM
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Re:
populations may cycle up and down, but the only long-term trends are down in species we humans are squeezing out, and up in ourselves and maybe housecats and cows. What about in the past when there was no artificial influence from humans? Or does this fact only refer to present times?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 79 by Coragyps, posted 05-10-2006 9:32 AM | | Coragyps has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 83 by crashfrog, posted 05-10-2006 7:47 PM | | robinrohan has replied |
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robinrohan
Inactive Member
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Message 85 of 170 (310872)
05-10-2006 7:53 PM
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Reply to: Message 83 by crashfrog
05-10-2006 7:47 PM
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Re:
2. Fact: The population of most species are not increasing. The way it's stated, it sounds like he's talking about the present. So your point is that all populations increase up to a certain point and then stabilize?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 83 by crashfrog, posted 05-10-2006 7:47 PM | | crashfrog has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 86 by crashfrog, posted 05-10-2006 8:03 PM | | robinrohan has replied |
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robinrohan
Inactive Member
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Message 87 of 170 (310889)
05-10-2006 8:31 PM
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Reply to: Message 86 by crashfrog
05-10-2006 8:03 PM
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Re:
Well, I think he is, because he's trying to phrase these as observations Seems more like a deduction than an observation. I'm sure there's a whole lot of species we don't observe.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 86 by crashfrog, posted 05-10-2006 8:03 PM | | crashfrog has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 88 by kuresu, posted 05-10-2006 10:36 PM | | robinrohan has replied | | | Message 89 by PaulK, posted 05-11-2006 2:54 AM | | robinrohan has not replied |
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robinrohan
Inactive Member
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Message 90 of 170 (311057)
05-11-2006 2:23 PM
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Reply to: Message 88 by kuresu
05-10-2006 10:36 PM
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Re:
true. the thousands of beetles that have yet to be discovered. The untold thousands of new species of microscopic bacteria.
It's all population growth curve. My ecology background is quite limited, but from what I understand, every population has an intial, slow increase in numbers, followed by exponential growth, at which point it exceeds the limit of the habitat and the numbers level off and there is a state of equilibrium. I was just trying to figure out if this is a deductive matter, that this state of affairs must be--except in cases in which there is artificial interference by humans.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 88 by kuresu, posted 05-10-2006 10:36 PM | | kuresu has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 91 by Quetzal, posted 05-11-2006 3:08 PM | | robinrohan has replied |
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robinrohan
Inactive Member
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Message 92 of 170 (311069)
05-11-2006 3:53 PM
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Reply to: Message 91 by Quetzal
05-11-2006 3:08 PM
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Re: Generalizations
Does that answer your question? I was wondering if there's a factor of inevitability involved, but apparently not. It's a matter of saying, "As far as we have observed, this is the case." What about this fact?
5. Fact: Some traits make an organism more likely to survive and reproduce, while others make an organism less likely to survive and reproduce. Is this inevitable? Perhaps all mutations could be neutral? Are mutations themselves inevitable?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 91 by Quetzal, posted 05-11-2006 3:08 PM | | Quetzal has not replied |
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robinrohan
Inactive Member
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Re: questioning facts
Yes. Again the claim is only for some, not all, of the traits. It is not theoretically possible that all traits be neutral?
Yes, because of inaccurate replication By "inaccurate replication," do you mean "imperfect replication"? This inevitably leads to mutation?
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robinrohan
Inactive Member
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Re: questioning facts
Well, its inevitable that most populations are not increasing. If they were, there's be way too many animals on the planet. It seems so obvious to me I don't know how you can't see it. Wouldn't it depend on how long they've been increasing and what rate? Perhaps most species are increasing but haven't been doing so for very long, or perhaps the rate of increase is so small we don't notice it. Is that theoretically possible?
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robinrohan
Inactive Member
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Re: questioning facts
Why do you care if its "theoretically possible"? I'm trying to figure out if this process is inevitable.
Traits exist that are not neutral What traits exist that are not neutral? How do we know they are not neutral? This message has been edited by robinrohan, 05-11-2006 03:48 PM
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robinrohan
Inactive Member
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Re: questioning facts
Why is it so hard for you to accept something even when everyone is telling you it? Telling me what?
A trait would have to not affect anything to be neutral I think we are talking about a particular effect not just any effect. It has to have an effect on which creatures reproduce and which don't, I think. Some trait that on the face of it seems like a survival advantage might have no effect on which life forms reproduce, those with or those without the trait. It depends on the entire environmental situation and the other traits possessed by the organism. One might even imagine a situation where having vision--which seems like an obvious advantage--might be a negative trait, depending on other factors. So perhaps it is not a simple matter at all determining which traits are neutral and which not. This message has been edited by robinrohan, 05-11-2006 05:36 PM
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robinrohan
Inactive Member
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Message 102 of 170 (311163)
05-11-2006 7:07 PM
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Reply to: Message 93 by kuresu
05-11-2006 4:08 PM
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Re: Generalizations
In that mutations do happen, you could say that they are inevitable I am referring to whether or not they are theoretically inevitable, and if so, whether it is theoretically inevitable that some of these be non-neutral.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 93 by kuresu, posted 05-11-2006 4:08 PM | | kuresu has replied |
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robinrohan
Inactive Member
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Re: questioning facts
After replication, when there is a difference, that difference is a mutation Imperfect replication is a mutation?
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robinrohan
Inactive Member
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Message 105 of 170 (311266)
05-11-2006 11:10 PM
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Reply to: Message 103 by kuresu
05-11-2006 9:58 PM
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Re: Generalizations
all I can say is "duh!". What are you talking about?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 103 by kuresu, posted 05-11-2006 9:58 PM | | kuresu has not replied |
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robinrohan
Inactive Member
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Message 107 of 170 (311282)
05-11-2006 11:33 PM
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Reply to: Message 106 by crashfrog
05-11-2006 11:11 PM
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Re: Generalizations
If outcomes are statistically random, then every possible outcome occurs given sufficient time. The amount of time is limited.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 106 by crashfrog, posted 05-11-2006 11:11 PM | | crashfrog has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 108 by crashfrog, posted 05-11-2006 11:35 PM | | robinrohan has replied |
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