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Author Topic:   Directly Observed Mutation
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8971
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 16 of 50 (154742)
11-01-2004 1:15 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by RustyShackelford
11-01-2004 1:10 AM


micro - macro
There was a whole thread which never finished asking what the difference is between macro and micro evolution.

The term is used occasionally in biology where micro is anything under the level of a species and macro is everything from speciation and up.

With these definitions there is evidence of both.

Now what is the definition of the two that you use?

What, very precisely, is the distinction between the two? How do I tell if a change is just under the "line" and is still micro and when it is just over the "line" and is called macro?

What mechanism is there that stops a lot of smaller changes cummulating in a totality which is a larger change?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-01-2004 1:10 AM RustyShackelford has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-01-2004 1:51 AM NosyNed has replied
 Message 19 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-01-2004 1:53 AM NosyNed has not replied

  
coffee_addict
Member
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 17 of 50 (154752)
11-01-2004 1:46 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by RustyShackelford
11-01-2004 1:10 AM


RustyShackelford writes:

But that's microevolution...


Please read Message 4 by moi. Would you say that those examples were micro or macro evolution?


He's not dead. He's electroencephalographically challenged.

The longest word in the English language is pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-01-2004 1:10 AM RustyShackelford has not replied

  
RustyShackelford 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 18 of 50 (154754)
11-01-2004 1:51 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by NosyNed
11-01-2004 1:15 AM


Re: micro - macro
Ned, I suppose micro-evolution would be under the level of species.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by NosyNed, posted 11-01-2004 1:15 AM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by NosyNed, posted 11-01-2004 10:29 AM RustyShackelford has replied

  
RustyShackelford 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 19 of 50 (154756)
11-01-2004 1:53 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by NosyNed
11-01-2004 1:15 AM


Re: micro - macro
What mechanism is there that stops a lot of smaller changes cummulating in a totality which is a larger change?

I've heard that a lot of changes that life goes through to adapt to environment aren't really new mutations but activations of recessive genes........


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by NosyNed, posted 11-01-2004 1:15 AM NosyNed has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by coffee_addict, posted 11-01-2004 2:11 AM RustyShackelford has replied
 Message 22 by crashfrog, posted 11-01-2004 2:45 AM RustyShackelford has not replied

  
coffee_addict
Member
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 20 of 50 (154759)
11-01-2004 2:11 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by RustyShackelford
11-01-2004 1:53 AM


Re: micro - macro
Can you give us an example so we can go from there?


He's not dead. He's electroencephalographically challenged.

The longest word in the English language is pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-01-2004 1:53 AM RustyShackelford has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-01-2004 2:22 PM coffee_addict has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 784 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 21 of 50 (154760)
11-01-2004 2:44 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by RustyShackelford
11-01-2004 1:10 AM


how is that evidence for macroevolution?

Because there's no such thing as "macro" or "microevolution"; there's just evolution.

It's all the same thing - natural selection and random mutation changing allele frequencies.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-01-2004 1:10 AM RustyShackelford has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 784 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 22 of 50 (154761)
11-01-2004 2:45 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by RustyShackelford
11-01-2004 1:53 AM


I've heard that a lot of changes that life goes through to adapt to environment aren't really new mutations but activations of recessive genes........

Recessive genes don't get "activated." They're already activated; they're just not expressed if their counterposing allele is dominant.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-01-2004 1:53 AM RustyShackelford has not replied

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coffee_addict
Member
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 23 of 50 (154765)
11-01-2004 3:24 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by crashfrog
11-01-2004 2:45 AM


Damn, crash. I was hoping that he'd find that out by himself and see how silly his statements are.


He's not dead. He's electroencephalographically challenged.

The longest word in the English language is pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by crashfrog, posted 11-01-2004 2:45 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8971
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 24 of 50 (154832)
11-01-2004 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by RustyShackelford
11-01-2004 1:51 AM


Re: micro - macro
That makes things easy then, if you use the "normal" biological definition.

Creationists, mostly, don't agree since there are lots and lots of examples of speciation and even new genera. IIRC there might even be examples of family crossing.

At the higher taxa new examples of arising aren't seen in current time, of coursem obviously. These though, being larger changes are preserved in the fossil record where something as subtle as a speciation event would not show.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-01-2004 1:51 AM RustyShackelford has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-01-2004 2:26 PM NosyNed has replied

  
RustyShackelford 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 25 of 50 (154899)
11-01-2004 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by coffee_addict
11-01-2004 2:11 AM


Re: micro - macro
Can you give us an example so we can go from there?

I've heard variation of color in plants and animals in adaptation to environment isn't caused by new mutation.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by coffee_addict, posted 11-01-2004 2:11 AM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Loudmouth, posted 11-01-2004 2:28 PM RustyShackelford has replied
 Message 29 by coffee_addict, posted 11-01-2004 2:29 PM RustyShackelford has not replied

  
RustyShackelford 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 26 of 50 (154902)
11-01-2004 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by NosyNed
11-01-2004 10:29 AM


Re: micro - macro
Ned, different species can't produce fertile offspring with one another, correct? Therefore, at that time, the genetic destinies of the original animal and the newer evolutionary form have become mutually exclusive.......I'd have to say that's definitely macroevolution.

But is there any evidence for it occuring?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by NosyNed, posted 11-01-2004 10:29 AM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 30 by NosyNed, posted 11-01-2004 2:30 PM RustyShackelford has not replied
 Message 37 by crashfrog, posted 11-01-2004 2:42 PM RustyShackelford has not replied
 Message 46 by Steen, posted 11-09-2004 3:26 AM RustyShackelford has not replied

  
Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 50 (154903)
11-01-2004 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by RustyShackelford
11-01-2004 2:22 PM


Re: micro - macro
quote:
I've heard variation of color in plants and animals in adaptation to environment isn't caused by new mutation.

This is very true. In humans, skin color is determined by the number of copies of a certain gene. What we are talking about is new mutations previously not found in the gene pool of a species. One example is hemoglobin C, a new type of hemoglobin created by a single mutation. This protein allows resistance to malara without the side effects associated with sickle cell anemia (hemoglobin S). Right now, this gene is found in a very small population where the mutation first occured. It is expected to spread rapidly through Africa in areas with endemic malaria. This is evolution in action.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-01-2004 2:22 PM RustyShackelford has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-01-2004 2:31 PM Loudmouth has replied

  
RustyShackelford 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 28 of 50 (154906)
11-01-2004 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by RustyShackelford
11-01-2004 2:26 PM


Re: micro - macro
Contrary to this (and despite Crash and Lam playing dumb), micro-evolution is no evidence for the unlimited variablity of living things.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-01-2004 2:26 PM RustyShackelford has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by coffee_addict, posted 11-01-2004 2:32 PM RustyShackelford has replied
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coffee_addict
Member
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 29 of 50 (154907)
11-01-2004 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by RustyShackelford
11-01-2004 2:22 PM


Re: micro - macro
Please be more specific.

I'm not sure what you are talking about, but that doesn't sound to me like "activation" of recessive alleles. Sounds more adaptation due to seasonal variations to me. Either that or you are thinking about co-dominance or incomplete dominance. Without anything specific, I don't really know what you are talking about.


He's not dead. He's electroencephalographically challenged.

The longest word in the English language is pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-01-2004 2:22 PM RustyShackelford has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8971
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 30 of 50 (154908)
11-01-2004 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by RustyShackelford
11-01-2004 2:26 PM


Speciation examples
www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=page&f=5&t=444&p=8 -->www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=page&f=5&t=444&p=8">http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=page&f=5&t=444&p=8

We have had a whole thread on it. I haven't reviewed it to see what is in there. I suggest that you post detailed questions to there.

Having just reviewed it I see it is a bit sparse. I'll bump it for more examples. There are a number scattered all over threads here.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-01-2004 2:26 PM RustyShackelford has not replied

  
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