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Author Topic:   Ring Species!!
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 304 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 35 of 50 (503922)
03-23-2009 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by harry
03-21-2009 11:03 PM


Re: Tools
He's Hijacking my beautiful thread
I was trying to compile a reference list of all ring species
He's Hijacking my beautiful thread
I was trying to compile a reference list of all ring species
Members of the Brassica genus show some very odd patterns of interbreeding potential.
They don't, so far as I know, form a geographical ring, but they're still of some interest.
See the SkepticWiki article on species for further information.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 304 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 42 of 50 (520133)
08-19-2009 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by drpepperandmilk
08-19-2009 1:26 PM


Re: How are ring species evidence for upward change?
I'd like to know how the variation observed in ring species demonstrates the potential of MACRO changes, i.e. new major structures.
The short answer is that ring species don't demonstrate that potential, the laws of genetics do. Oh, and the fact that we know that it's happened. Ring species demonstrate incipient speciation.
The lack of ability/inclination in the converging groups to breed seems to indicate that significant information from a finite gene pool was lost, not gained.
No, that is not what it seems to indicate.
Which does it take more information to describe, one species or two species?
A little common sense here, please?
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by drpepperandmilk, posted 08-19-2009 1:26 PM drpepperandmilk has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by drpepperandmilk, posted 08-19-2009 5:23 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 304 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 45 of 50 (520183)
08-19-2009 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by drpepperandmilk
08-19-2009 5:40 PM


Re: How are ring species evidence for upward change?
If we are defining species by any amount of visible change, or the more rigid criteria of sexual barriers, then yes, I would say that "ring species" result in new species. But to say this is what adds up to large scale descent from single cells to the vast array of life that we observe on earth now doesn’t make sense based on what we know and have observed.
Based on what you know and have observed, possibly. But without wishing to be rude, may I point out that biologists, who know and have observed more biology than you have, have come to quite the opposite conclusion.
I think the assumption here, which leads to differing interpretation of the evidence, is that this process is naturally limitless and needs something to prevent it from evolving organisms beyond limitation. The arbitrary boundary in original kinds is not known, but I think it’s more reasonable to assume that a definitive boundary (certainly not arbitrary) exists rather that to assume it does not.
But the laws of genetics show us that there is no such boundary. The "assumption" that you believe to be reasonable is known, for certain, to be false.
What you personally think is "reasonable" is not evidence for anything one way or the other. The facts of genetics, by contrast, are.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 304 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 46 of 50 (520190)
08-19-2009 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by drpepperandmilk
08-19-2009 5:23 PM


Re: How are ring species evidence for upward change?
Mendel’s?
No, all of them.
You will find that genetics has moved on somewhat since the nineteenth century.
You can’t substantiate a claim by saying you simply know something happened.
You asked what proved that such changes have the potential to occur. The fact that they have occurred is surely very good evidence that they have the potential to do so.
By analogy, to show that acorns have the potential to grow into oaks it is sufficient to show that acorns have grown into oaks. It is then not necessary to go into the nitty-gritty of the biological details to prove this same proposition.
The sum of information I’m talking about is the total within each group, not the two end groups added together.
Then you have a strange idea of the meaning of the word "sum". What on earth could one mean by the "sum" of the information other than what you get if you add it up? That's what "sum" means.
If you wish to discuss whether one of the two species so produced has less "information" than the original species, then feel free to provide some actual evidence. You could start by saying how you're quantifying information, but as you're a creationist I predict that you will never do so.
My original question phrased a bit differently: If this (ring species) is an example of how progressive changes occur in biological evolution, how do apparent small steps backward like this add up to big steps forward over time?
This is next to meaningless. If you are going to count speciation as a step "backwards", what are you going to count as a step forwards --- extinction? If you exterminated one of the species in a ring, would you count this as an increase in whatever you mean by "information"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by drpepperandmilk, posted 08-19-2009 5:23 PM drpepperandmilk has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by drpepperandmilk, posted 08-21-2009 12:06 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
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