Ring Species!!

You are right, there could be more than one ring. This is one of the things that makes studying dragonflies (and many other insect orders) so exciting. Trying to unravel the relationships of these species complexes and their evolutionary history is what gives some of our lives meaning. The best part is....we never run out of new questions.* LOL!! As far as I know, no one has ever bred dragonflies. Dragonfly adults do not do well in captivity, although they might do alright in a large atrium. Usually Odonate species and sub-species have a number of barriers (visual cues, morphological features, behaviors) that prevent interbreeding. We do occasionally find hybrids, (coincidentally, I did the illustrations for a recently published paper on two damselfly hybrids) but no one knows if they are sterile or not. Dragonfly mating behavior is very complex and completely different from reproduction in all the other insect orders.*The IDists/Creationist never get this! We don't care if they don't accept evolution. We are mostly too busy studying the evolution of our favorite groups of organisms to worry about them. In all the years they have been around they have not given us a single tool to help us study biology because the tool that actually works in the field or in the lab is the Theory of Evolution.

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What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty PythonYou can't build a Time Machine without Weird Optics -- S. Valley

Yes, the northern ones, at least, do - to southern Asia, according to one clause on Irwin's page. And that, of course, has me wondering if northern and southern species winter together or not....Aha!: http://www.zoology.ubc.ca/~irwin/PDFs/Irwin2000.pdf
One would need that Williamson monograph to get my answer, I suppose.Edited by Coragyps, : add infoEdited by Coragyps, : add link, too

No. That's an example of variation within the species. Likely you could accomplish the same results in 1 to 10 years of handpicking out certain characteristics.Basically, "The species is immutable" could be modified to "Each type of animal is immutable and vibrant due to an amazing amount of variation inherent in each animal grouping."Where you draw the line is up to you. The term "Species" has multiple meanings.

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- Sky-

I doubt you be able to show that even ONE of these highly respected scientists were not believers in Supernatural Intelligent Design.JOSEPH LISTER
LOUIS PASTEUR
ROBERT BOYLE
GEORGES CUVIER
HENRI FABRE
GREGOR MENDEL
LOUIS AGASSIZ
CAROLUS LINNAEUSThose are the dead ones.As to the living, 90% of Geneticists will
tell you (one on one) that they also
believe in a Supernatural Intelligent Designer.If you don't like my numbers, you can change that to
10% and your statement will still be off base. Plus they seem to have never experienced any stress in their lives, given that there is the smallest amount of variation in the fossil record and are a great example of an Immutable Species. This makes them "uninteresting" to study.

quote:

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As to the living, 90% of Geneticists will
tell you (one on one) that they also
believe in a Supernatural Intelligent Designer.

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Are yes ofcourse, when you are one on one with them. They will only tell you won't they.The more scientific qualifications one has, the more likely you are to be less religious

What is your point? What do they have to do with ring species and can you show that ANY of them WERE believers in Supernatural Intelligent Design?And more to the point, did any of them give us any tools of Supernatural Intelligent Design that any scientists today are using? What do their religious beliefs have to do with science? Are they sequencing genes for Jesus or what? This convinces me that you are just pulling numbers out of your ass and probably have never even spoken to a Geneticist. The fossil record is pretty good for Odonates (dragonflies & damselflies) and spans almost 400 million years. They show a VERY LARGE amount of variation and change over that period. Hundreds of species of fossil insects have been described and many thousands of species are living today. Dozens of un-described species are being discovered every year. How sad for you that your life is so boring. Fortunately for myself and hundreds of my colleges you are wrong!

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What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty PythonYou can't build a Time Machine without Weird Optics -- S. Valley

I know. One of the best, biologically, is the one about interbreeding populations. Can you offer a speculation, Sky, as to why those eastern and western Siberian greenish warblers don't interbreed? And I doubt that I give a crap. Did Mendel invoke God in his reporting on wrinkled/smooth ratios? Yellow/green ratios? I don't seem to remember him doing so.

True, but that's due to their religious upbringing, not increased education.As to asking them, I challenge you do it and report back here with your own results.
Nobody has had the guts to do it yet. They don't want to find out their friends believe in the supernatural.So they hide in forums where 10 people out of the world's population believe the same as they do.

Hmm. And here I'm a highly educated atheist that was raised a China missionary brat......I still want to know why those Siberian greenish warblers don't interbreed, Sky.

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"The wretched world lies now under the tyranny of foolishness; things are believed by Christians of such absurdity as no one ever could aforetime induce the heathen to believe." - Agobard of Lyons, ca. 830 AD

So Yes, ID believers have given us tools.And no. The Theory of Evolution is a footnote in any "List of tools" for biology. "The Lab" deals with real testable results. Not theory that take millions of years to get results.Inherent variation, on the other hand, can be worked with in days and months. Ring Species is the study of current population variation and is proof of intelligent design rather than evolution.

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- Sky-

....and your thinking that your life is a normal pattern for the rest of the world.But I hold your parents responsible for that attitude.
Research shows different results.Search - "Science Not to Blame for Non-Religious Scientists"

My first answer, without any study of the situation, would be attitude. Behavior has the most profound and active effect on species differentiation. It could be any number of factors that would change whether a bird needed to be aggressive or passive. had an easy life or hard...etc.

Open a topic on this and we can discuss it there. That would be interesting.Edited by Coragyps, : missed non-reply on warblers....

Let's see.....they're almost the same size, look very much alike, eat the same things in the same forests, have the same natural enemies....
what else do you suggest? The links to studies are upthread.

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"The wretched world lies now under the tyranny of foolishness; things are believed by Christians of such absurdity as no one ever could aforetime induce the heathen to believe." - Agobard of Lyons, ca. 830 AD

I ask what are those tools and what do they have to do with ID? So, what is your definition of the process of evolution and the Theory of Evolution? If you want us to take your criticisms seriously we would like to know that you know what you are talking about. I am not sure what you mean by inherent variation. Proof of intelligent design....well if YOU say so it must be true. Would you please explain this proof a little more fully? I see the Nobel Prize in your future.

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What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty PythonYou can't build a Time Machine without Weird Optics -- S. Valley