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Author Topic:   Beneficial Mutations Made Simple
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 16 of 52 (313625)
05-19-2006 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by mr_matrix
05-19-2006 5:13 PM


More uninformed rubbish
Please see message #13 above.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by mr_matrix, posted 05-19-2006 5:13 PM mr_matrix has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by mr_matrix, posted 05-19-2006 7:11 PM Wounded King has replied

  
mr_matrix
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 52 (313627)
05-19-2006 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Wounded King
05-19-2006 7:08 PM


Re: More uninformed rubbish
This "Rubbish" has more logic than the so called "benifitial mutations". What do you mean uninformed? I have read the previous posts and all I found is evolutionary "Rubbish".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Wounded King, posted 05-19-2006 7:08 PM Wounded King has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Wounded King, posted 05-19-2006 7:31 PM mr_matrix has not replied
 Message 19 by Coragyps, posted 05-19-2006 7:32 PM mr_matrix has not replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 18 of 52 (313639)
05-19-2006 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by mr_matrix
05-19-2006 7:11 PM


Re: More uninformed rubbish
Wow, you read like 14 whole posts on a message board, well you must know pretty much everything about genetics by now.
All I saw in these posts (the ones that defend mutations and evolution) is just imaginary tales of a mutation having a benifit.
So you read all of the referenced material? You read the Rip, et al. paper and concluded it was an imaginary tale? Care to tell us how you reached that conclusion?
You know that the 4G/5G polymorphic form of PAL-1 isn't actually connected to Pal-1 plasma levels? How did you come by this knowledge?
What evidence do you have that pyrethroid resistant whitefly don't outcompete non-resistant whitefly under heavy insecticide application?
Those are the specific mutations which have been mentioned and rather than addressing any of them or giving any sort of reasoned argument you just close you eyes, go 'la,la,la,la,la', and think you have pulled off some debating coup somehow rebutting all these examples thorugh the sheer force of your ignorance?
Lets look at the DNA, it is a very complex structure that functions almost perfectly on its own
Whoops, wrong again! DNA is essentially a very simple structure composed of strings of only 4 nucletotide bases. On its own DNA will barely do anything, apart from maybe hybridise and hydrolyse a little. It takes a number of enzymes and other accessory proteins in order for DNA to 'function'.
and a mutation is just an accident that damages the DNA and harms the organism.
And a completely unsupported assertion to round things off. Unless that is you have some evidence that mutations are always harmful or can justify terming any change in the DNA as damage.
Some of you go as far as to claim that mutations can be useful if you use them well.
I haven't seen anyone claim this, in fact no one hs been talking about 'using' mutations at all, well or otherwise. What has been pointed out is that a mutation which may be beneficial in one environment may be detrimental in another.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 735 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 19 of 52 (313641)
05-19-2006 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by mr_matrix
05-19-2006 7:11 PM


Re: More uninformed rubbish
Try this, from an old thread. The emphasis is slightly off for this thread, but hey, I'm lazy.
Ref: Nature, vol 414, pp 305-308 (2001) - "Haemoglobin C protects against clinical Plasmodium falciparum malaria" , by D Modiano et al. It's not online, to my knowledge, except by paid subscription.
Normal human hemoglobin ("HbA") is coded for by DNA which reads, as the 16th through 18th positions of a certain gene, GAA. This codon tells a cell's protein factory to put the amino acid glutamate at the sixth spot along the peptide that will become the beta chain of your or my hemoglobin. However, in a large number of West Africans, particularly the Mossi of Burkina Faso, this speck of DNA reads AAA. The distribution of folks with this variant looks like a bull's-eye: lots of the gene in one area of Burkina Faso, and fewer and fewer people with it as you move away from that center. The distribution is consistent with the idea that one person had the mutation about a thousand years ago, and that it spread through his or her descendants since. (Most people weren't terribly mobile in that area until nearly modern times - at least until the slave trade started.)
Now this DNA change alters that sixth amino acid on the beta chain of hemoglobin to lysine, making HbC. Most people with hemoglobin C never know it - some have mild anemia, gallstones, or spleen problems. But Modiano's paper documents that Mossi children that have both genes for HbC are 7% as likely to develop malaria as their classmates who have boring old HbA. 7% as likely to get the disease that kills a couple of million kids in West Africa every year. And that's because their genome has the information to make a protein that has one amino acid that's different from the one in their neighbors, and in their ancestors, too, if you go back a ways. New information. Useful new information. (You will agree that being able to make two different proteins is "more information" than being able to make only one, won't you? Kids in the study that had the AC genotype - that had both HbA and HbC in their blood - had a 29% reduction in their chance of getting malaria.) New, useful, "information" from a mutation.
Now a footnote: if your DNA reads GUA instead of GAA in this position, you get a valine in position 6 and have sickle-cell trait - the result of a different mutated hemoglobin called HbS. This protects against malaria, too, but the side effects can be severe, including fatal, especially if you have both genes for HbS. This, too, is "new information" - a different protein is being made.
---------------
Comments?
(Sorry, old-timers. It just keeps floating to the surface.)

This message is a reply to:
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mr_matrix
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 52 (313663)
05-19-2006 7:59 PM


Look it is simple and doesnt need copying and pasting complicated stuff from athiest biased websites. We all know that life forms are so diverse that there are species that have not been unidentified yet. So, in order for mutations to account for all this diversity, these benifitial mutations have to be very abundant in nature and should be observed very frequently now. If there is one example about a benifitail mutation (like the haemoglobin stuff which I dont realy understand how it is related to evolution)that is not enough to be evidence for evolution.
YOu all know the great rarity of benefitail mutations but still desperately believe in them because they are vital for the evolutionary imaginary scenarios.
In addition, the DNA with all the enzyemes and proteins and other stuff and how they work together is a very complex system by itself and mutations are just random intervention (or accidents) in this highly ordered system. Go drive your car and make an accident, lets see if this accident can improve your car.
But sadly enough, since you are an evolutionists who believed in benifitial mutations you should also believe that accidents improve cars. And if you fail to see the complexity in the DNA and the other systems that work around it, then I cant say anything to you but to see and eye doctor.
Edited by mr_matrix, : No reason given.
Edited by mr_matrix, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by NosyNed, posted 05-19-2006 8:25 PM mr_matrix has replied
 Message 23 by crashfrog, posted 05-19-2006 8:36 PM mr_matrix has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 21 of 52 (313686)
05-19-2006 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by mr_matrix
05-19-2006 7:59 PM


Numbers please
YOu all know the great rarity of benefitail mutations but still desperately believe in them because they are vital for the evolutionary imaginary scenarios.
As I suspected, you've not looked very hard at anything.
Since beneficial mutations are, according to you, "rare" behaps you can tell us just how rare?
You may start with the numbers of all kinds of mutations that there are in an individual human. Then define what you mean by "beneficial". Then tell us how many beneficial (or at least not harmful) mutations there would have to be between us and our nearly relatives.
If you want to use numbers from other species that would be ok.
You do, of course, know all this, since you couldn't make the statements you have it you didn't; right?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by mr_matrix, posted 05-19-2006 7:59 PM mr_matrix has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by mr_matrix, posted 05-19-2006 8:32 PM NosyNed has replied

  
mr_matrix
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 52 (313687)
05-19-2006 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by NosyNed
05-19-2006 8:25 PM


Re: Numbers please
As rare as imposible!
All these exiplanations about how mutations can aid in evolution are in fact based more on imagination than on evidince. This is very clear from the previous posts.
All it takes to understand this is the analygies about the car accidents and the earthquakes to show you the imposibility of benefitial mutatioins. Thats why evolutionists realize this but they, as usual, refreshed their imagination to design new ways of how mutations can aid in evolution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by NosyNed, posted 05-19-2006 8:25 PM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by NosyNed, posted 05-19-2006 8:41 PM mr_matrix has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 23 of 52 (313690)
05-19-2006 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by mr_matrix
05-19-2006 7:59 PM


YOu all know the great rarity of benefitail mutations but still desperately believe in them because they are vital for the evolutionary imaginary scenarios.
"Believe in them" in what sense? I mean, the very way you phrase this tells me that, like us, you accept the reality that, rarely, beneficial mutations do occur.
Given that a selective power exists that promotes the beneficial and eliminates the detrimental, what's the relevance that they're rare? If you pick and choose the beneficial and discard the detrimental - as natural selection does - the fact that they're rare doesn't matter. Beneficial mutations will still be all you have left.
It's like the way they make microchips. I don't know what you know about computers - CPUs that they charge $200 bucks to make actually only cost about 10-20 bucks to manufacture, ship, package, and retail. They don't cost all that much.
The reason that you have to pay so much is because, out of all the CPUs they manufacture, less than 1 in 10 or 20 actually work. The rest are rendered completely useless by flaws in the silicon substrate they're photoetched on. When you plop down $200 bucks for an AMD Athlon XP Venice core, you're actually paying for not only that chip, but the 20 others that failed one or another pre-retail test and were sent right to the dumpster.
Like beneficial mutations, functional CPUs are quite rare. But a selective process exists in both situations to discard the bad and leave only the good, so the rarity doesn't matter. You can still buy a functional CPU for your computer; you can still expect to see beneficial mutations occuring in the natural world, and we do.
Go drive your car and make an accident, lets see if this accident can improve your car.
Well, now you're contradicting yourself. Do they happen rarely, or do they not happen at all? You may see those as the same thing, but that's not correct. If beneficial mutations happen rarely, evolution happens. If beneficial mutations don't ever happen, there's no evolution.
But you can't have it both ways. So which is it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by mr_matrix, posted 05-19-2006 7:59 PM mr_matrix has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by mr_matrix, posted 05-19-2006 8:42 PM crashfrog has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 24 of 52 (313692)
05-19-2006 8:41 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by mr_matrix
05-19-2006 8:32 PM


Re: Numbers please
As rare as imposible!
All these exiplanations about how mutations can aid in evolution are in fact based more on imagination than on evidince. This is very clear from the previous posts.
So you don't actually know do you? You haven't a clue about the numbers involved. "Rare" has some definition of not very common. It might mean 1/100 or 1/1000 or 1/10000. Which is it?
"Impossible" suggests a number more like zero or 1 in 1000000000. Is that it?
All it takes to understand this is the analygies about the car accidents and the earthquakes to show you the imposibility of benefitial mutatioins. Thats why evolutionists realize this but they, as usual, refreshed their imagination to design new ways of how mutations can aid in evolution.
Ah, and this shows that you don't understand evolution at all. It is about living things. Living things reproduce; cars do not f**k. Therefore any anaolgy that doesn't have imperfect reproduction is NOT an analogy about evolution at ALL.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by mr_matrix, posted 05-19-2006 8:32 PM mr_matrix has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by mr_matrix, posted 05-19-2006 8:44 PM NosyNed has replied

  
mr_matrix
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 52 (313693)
05-19-2006 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by crashfrog
05-19-2006 8:36 PM


Benifitial mutations are not as rare as functional CPUs bucause these are mush more frequent compared to benifitial mutations.
If you want to make an analogy, than compare the impossibility of benifitail mutations to be as impossible as random waves on the beach constructing a sand castle.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by crashfrog, posted 05-19-2006 8:36 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by NosyNed, posted 05-19-2006 8:44 PM mr_matrix has not replied
 Message 30 by crashfrog, posted 05-19-2006 9:41 PM mr_matrix has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 26 of 52 (313694)
05-19-2006 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by mr_matrix
05-19-2006 8:42 PM


Numbers please
Until you attach numbers to the terms you aren't saying anything that means a damm thing.
Get with it ok?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by mr_matrix, posted 05-19-2006 8:42 PM mr_matrix has not replied

  
mr_matrix
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 52 (313695)
05-19-2006 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by NosyNed
05-19-2006 8:41 PM


Re: Numbers please
Sure! if you like 1 in 1000000000 than know this:
Is it more logical to you to desperately believe in chance as low as this rathar than accepting creation and call this logical?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by NosyNed, posted 05-19-2006 8:41 PM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by NosyNed, posted 05-19-2006 8:46 PM mr_matrix has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 28 of 52 (313697)
05-19-2006 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by mr_matrix
05-19-2006 8:44 PM


Rarity of beneficial mutations
Ok, you like 1 in a billion.
How many mutations of all kinds do you have? (Assuming you have the average number for humans.)
How many new mutations are there going to be in the next generation of humans?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by mr_matrix, posted 05-19-2006 8:44 PM mr_matrix has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by mr_matrix, posted 05-19-2006 8:59 PM NosyNed has replied

  
mr_matrix
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 52 (313707)
05-19-2006 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by NosyNed
05-19-2006 8:46 PM


Re: Rarity of beneficial mutations
There is no need for mathematical calculations. They are usual works of evolutionists where they dive in details that are no longer related to evolution.
There is one thing you need to know: Even though non have obsereved benifitial mutations or species turn into other species, still, evolutionists desperately hope they do, otherwise if they dont then evolution is in trouble.
Further calculations and estimations on benifitial mutations and species turning to other species are not necessary, because they dont realy prove the main point that we're missing: do they actually occur in the first place before we can even make any further studies on them? But unless one of these two is observed, than evolutionists should not claim any further that they do occur.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by NosyNed, posted 05-19-2006 8:46 PM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by EZscience, posted 05-19-2006 9:53 PM mr_matrix has not replied
 Message 32 by Coragyps, posted 05-19-2006 10:20 PM mr_matrix has not replied
 Message 33 by NosyNed, posted 05-20-2006 12:13 AM mr_matrix has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 30 of 52 (313724)
05-19-2006 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by mr_matrix
05-19-2006 8:42 PM


If you want to make an analogy, than compare the impossibility of benifitail mutations to be as impossible as random waves on the beach constructing a sand castle.
Er, wait. See, you keep confusing me. Are you saying they never happen, or that they happen rarely?
You're contradicting yourself all over the place, here. Which is it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by mr_matrix, posted 05-19-2006 8:42 PM mr_matrix has not replied

  
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