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Author Topic:   Dogs will be Dogs will be ???
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 226 of 331 (476230)
07-22-2008 7:35 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by Coyote
07-21-2008 12:18 PM


Re: Nonsense
Still not on topic

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 227 of 331 (476231)
07-22-2008 7:35 AM
Reply to: Message 209 by Coragyps
07-21-2008 12:31 PM


Re: Can you see my hands waiving?
Still not on topic

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 228 of 331 (476232)
07-22-2008 7:35 AM
Reply to: Message 210 by bluegenes
07-21-2008 12:39 PM


Re: Canidae prone to rapid evolution
Still not on topic

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 229 of 331 (476233)
07-22-2008 7:35 AM
Reply to: Message 211 by LucyTheApe
07-21-2008 1:11 PM


Re: Dead dog walking
Still not on topic

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 230 of 331 (476234)
07-22-2008 7:35 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by Coyote
07-21-2008 1:24 PM


Re: Dead dog walking
Still not on topic

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 231 of 331 (476235)
07-22-2008 7:36 AM
Reply to: Message 213 by AlphaOmegakid
07-21-2008 1:57 PM


Re: Can you see my hands waiving?
Still not on topic

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 232 of 331 (476236)
07-22-2008 7:36 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by RickJB
07-21-2008 2:57 PM


Re: Can you see my hands waiving?
Still not on topic

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 233 of 331 (476237)
07-22-2008 7:36 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by AlphaOmegakid
07-21-2008 3:26 PM


Re: Can you see my hands waiving?
Still not on topic

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 234 of 331 (476238)
07-22-2008 7:36 AM
Reply to: Message 216 by RickJB
07-21-2008 4:52 PM


Re: Citation.
Still not on topic

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 235 of 331 (476239)
07-22-2008 7:37 AM
Reply to: Message 217 by Wounded King
07-21-2008 6:42 PM


Re: Can you see my hands waiving?
Still not on topic

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 236 of 331 (476240)
07-22-2008 7:37 AM
Reply to: Message 218 by Dr Adequate
07-21-2008 6:53 PM


Re: Can you see my hands waiving?
Still not on topic

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 237 of 331 (476241)
07-22-2008 7:37 AM
Reply to: Message 219 by bluescat48
07-21-2008 8:26 PM


Re: Canidae prone to rapid evolution
Still not on topic

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 238 of 331 (476242)
07-22-2008 7:43 AM
Reply to: Message 195 by AlphaOmegakid
07-16-2008 11:25 PM


THE TOPIC is dogs compared to horse species changes
AlphaOmegaKid -
I am repeating reply Message 199 - please answer this post AND NO OTHERS THAT ARE NOT ON TOPIC
quote:
Thanks AlphaOmegaKid,
We do not see dog evolution change the number of rib bones multiple times. We do not see dog evolution changing the numer of vertebrae multiple times.
This would be critical if dogs weren't selected, particularly the breeds, to be dogs, and "abnormal" ones with different numbers of toes, say, actively selected out of the gene pool. Such mutations that cause +/- numbers of repeated items do occur, but three toed dogs will not be chosen "best of breed" eh?
This article about a dog missing toes on it's feet show that such mutations do occur occasionally in dogs. Also google "dog polydactyly" to see examples of extra toes. It happens.
We do see size changes. ... And we see substantial changes in skull shapes. What we see in dog evolution is variation in gene alleles.
Yes, what we see in evolution is evolution, curious fact eh?
We do not see specialized features from new genes.
It is curious that you say we see "substantial changes in skull shapes" and then contradict this with "we do not see specialized features ..." when the shape of the skull is a specialized feature: the shape of the bulldog face compared to that of a greyhound, for example, is specialized for that particular breed and is distinctive morphological change. These skull shapes are hereditary (or they would not be particular to the breed) and we do not see such skull differences within the variation of wolves, so they are de facto due to hereditary change since divergence from wolves.
Changing the number of repetitions of various parts is not necessary to show morphological change. It is one type of change that usually gets classified as a species difference when it is across the population, but it is not necessary for speciation.
Changing of shapes of bones is a morphological change that would show up in the fossil record, and is another type of change that can be used to differentiate species when it is across the population, but is not necessary for speciation.
Changing the proportions of lengths of different bones compared to other bones in the same organism is a morphological change that would show up in the fossil record, and is another type of change that can be used to differentiate species when it is across the population, but is not necessary for speciation.
Change in overall size is a morphological change that would show up in the fossil record, and is another type of change that can be used to differentiate species when it is across the population, but is not necessary for speciation.
What we see in dogs compared to humans is irrelevant to the topic.
In fact I challenge you to cite a human, dog, or horse mutation that has been identified as "beneficial" and is morphological. Note the term morphological. This is what can be seen in the fossil record.
Irrelevant. Every fossil of every organism shows beneficial hereditary traits: they lived. Every fossil of every organism that shows morphological differences from other fossils therefore meets your criteria. Every living organism shows beneficial hereditary traits: they live. Every living organism that shows morphological differences from other living organism therefore meets your criteria.
That is the type of evidence you need to convince me that this type of evolution is possible. Without this evidence you just have your imagination.
Personally I don't care one tiny hoot whether you are convinced or not, because your opinion is irrelevant to what the evidence shows. If you believed that the earth is flat, this would not suddenly be true.
We do not see dog evolution changing from "toes" to hooves.
But we do see a horse ancestor that has "paws" similar to modern dogs, both in numbers of toes and in the particular stance of these animals on the toes, and we do see horse evolution from toes to hooves over a period of 55 million years, a period of time rather significantly longer than the time that dogs breeds have existed distinct from wolves.
Now I hope you agree this addresses your main thesis.
Not really. You are still dancing around the issue.
Dogs in their variety and breeds define a range of variations. The question is whether this range of variations is more or less than the difference between Hyracotherium and Mesohippus.
Is the difference in skulls of Hyracotherium and Mesohippus more or less than the variation seen in dogs?
Is the difference in size of Hyracotherium and Mesohippus more or less than the variation seen in dogs?
Is the difference in proportions of different bones of Hyracotherium and Mesohippus more or less than the variation seen in dogs?
Yes or no?
Enjoy.
I will have to ask that this thread be shut down if people can not stick to the topic. Over half the posts on this thread are off topic and a waste of thread.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : edited
Edited by RAZD, : .

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 07-16-2008 11:25 PM AlphaOmegakid has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 07-23-2008 9:24 AM RAZD has replied

  
RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 239 of 331 (476243)
07-22-2008 7:46 AM
Reply to: Message 237 by RAZD
07-22-2008 7:37 AM


Re: Canidae prone to rapid evolution
RAZD, for all your good intentions ID proponents like Beretta are simply not prepared to work on one topic in the manner that you favour.
As soon as the evidence piles up they revert to a scattershot approach and muddy the waters by throwing out innumerable falshoods that cry out for a response.
Beretta stopped engaging with you long before the thread drifted OT.
In any case you are in the right. Perhaps the best way to ensure a very clean topic is to have a great debate with limited access.
Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by RAZD, posted 07-22-2008 7:37 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 240 of 331 (476308)
07-22-2008 7:37 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by RickJB
07-22-2008 7:46 AM


Dog variation more or less than difference between eohip and mesohip
RAZD, for all your good intentions ID proponents like Beretta are simply not prepared to work on one topic in the manner that you favour.
Agreed, however this is not a license to diverge from the topic, rather it means waiting for another creationist/idologist, and seeing how they deal with the information.
The reluctance of Beretta and of AlphaOmegaKid to look at these skeletons and recognize and acknowledge that the differences between them is less than the variation that we see in dogs demonstrates that their denial of macrevolution is not based on a review of the evidence.
In any case you are in the right. Perhaps the best way to ensure a very clean topic is to have a great debate with limited access.
The problem there, is that when (not if?) the creationist runs away from the evidence you end up with a dead end -- like my "great debate with S1WC - whereas this way it is open to new creationists.
So for all the creationists out there who think macroevolution is not shown in the fossil record consider these pictures:
Note that both of these pictures are of actual fossil skeletons in similar positions and angle of view.
Questions for creationists:
(1) Are these, or are they not, similar animals? If not, why - what are the differences?
(2) Are the differences more, or less, than the differences in dogs? If more, why - what are the differences and how do they exceed the variation seen in dogs.
Edited by RAZD, : .
Edited by RAZD, : moved photos

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by RickJB, posted 07-22-2008 7:46 AM RickJB has not replied

  
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