Dinosaurs and man lived together, which destroys the theory of evolution

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1. Both dino and reptile generally larger than birds

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This is an absurd claim. Firstly, investigation of most of the extant 'reptiles' shows that the majority of them fall within the range of extant avian forms: Most lizards and geckos (the most numerous of living reptilian forms) are similar in body mass to a small or medium sized perching bird. The large 'reptiles' that you are most likely refering to, the crocodilians, the large snakes and lizards such as the iguana and komodo, pale in comparison to mass estimates for recently extinct avian forms, including the genus Dinornis of New Zealand and the Elephant Bird of Madagascar. Secondly, there are many more numerous examples of small to medium sized dinosaurs than of the hulking giants, which tend to get most of the media's attention. In particular, Theropoda is extensively populated with specimens that are comparable to modern birds in size, animals such as Compsognathus and Archaeopteryx. Thirdly, it's irrelevant anyway - mass is not a reliable indicator of phylogeny - closely related forms often differ markedly in mass (compare the Kiwi with it's closest relative, the Ostrich), and two completely unrelated animals can also have comparative mass through the process of convergent evolution (compare a bottlenosed dolphin with a medium sized shark)

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2. Both dino and reptile have four legs. Bird two legs, 2 wings.

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There are several flaws with this statement. Firstly, All Dinosaurs, birds and reptiles are tetrapods, and share homologies with respect to limb bones. On consideration of the skeletal morphology of those bones, rather than the functionality of the limbs, we are more likely to get a closer understanding of phylogeny. For example, rotary movement of the carpals and metacarpals of the forelimbs of theropods and extant avian forms is a feature altogether absent from extant reptiles. Similarly, a laterally facing shoulder joint in Archaeopteryx is a shared derived feature of dinosaurid and avian specimens. Specific function of limbs is not evidence of phylogeny. By your logic, bats would be more closely related to birds than they are to cows (because bats and birds both have wings, and cows have 'four legs') while cows would be more closely related to crocodiles than they are to bats (because cows and crocodiles have 'four legs' and bats have wings). Similarly, how do you explain the bipedal theropods? For all intents and purposes, they do not have 'four legs', but rather, 'two legs and two arms'? By your logic, your argument is still self-defeating, because these forms more closely resemble birds, both flightless and flying.

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3. Both dino and reptile land creatures. Bird generally flying creature.

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Do you classify the Salt water crocodile as a land creature? It spends more time in the sea than most birds do in the air (with the exception of migrating sea birds). Similarly, would you classify an Ostrich or an Emu, or a Kakapo, or any other flightless bird as more of a air creature than say, a flying snake? Your logic is again flawed. Niche exploitation is not by default evidence of common ancestry.

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4. Both dino and reptile tails generally more similar than bird.

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Not true - even though modern birds have lost their tails through secondary reduction, modern avian caudal vertebrae are more similar to the caudal vertebrae of the Dromaeosauridae, such as Deinonychus with respect to interlocking by boney tendons, than the dinosaurs are to the more sinusoidally flexible caudal vertebrae of the crocodilians and lizards.

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5. Both dino and reptile not feathered like bird.

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Rubbish - numerous coelurisaurian dinosaur specimens have been uncovered with fossilised plumaceous feather imprinting.

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6. Both dino and reptile mouth and teeth unlike beaked bird.

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Again, not entirely true. Whilst it can be conceded that most of the theropod dinosaurs have been found with the homotypic 'reptilian' teeth, analysis of theropod brain cases and skull morphology reveals a litany of bird-like characters, such as avian brain case, middle ear chambers connected to both throat and air canals running over top of the skull (absent in extant reptiles, but present in extant aves) and a sinus system connected at the front of the skull to a bulbus parasphenoid.

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7. Many birds migrate. Dino and reptile stays put.

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1. You have no idea as to the migratory extent of Dinosaurs.
2. Most birds do not migrate. It is limited a few bird arctic and temperate bird species
3. Several species of Reptiles migrate - Turtles, snakes and Iguanas are all well documented to undertake voyages comparative in length to those of many birds.

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8. Neither dino or reptile has song like bird voice.

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You have no idea about the vocalisations of dinosaurs. If the cranial morphology of Parasaurolophus is anything to go by, I would say that you were most likely premature in your judgement

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9. General appearance of dino if leggs cropped much more like reptile than birdie

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If you hacked off the legs of a Velociraptor and put it next to an ostrich (also with legs hacked off, for good measure
), and then decided to throw an alligator into the mix, you would not only have carnage, but the rude awakening that Velociraptors are much more avian in morphology then crocodilians.RegardsDarwin ReduxThis message has been edited by Darwin Redux, 10-22-2004 12:53 AMThis message has been edited by Darwin Redux, 10-22-2004 02:01 AM

First, (as I think you were trying to qualify yourself), I don't believe anyone here is arguing that reptiles evolved into birds, so the Denton quote is inconsequential.However, I believe the comment is based in part on a controversial report (regarding lung evolution in dinosaur to bird) repeatedly latched onto by creationist websites. Here is a website discussing the original report and skepticism.In any case, it is a gross oversimplification, and there is no such thing as a "reptile lung", "bird lung", and "dinosaur lung" - there is quite the range of lung types within each group (I'm sure you could imagine that a hummingbird would evolve a different lung structure than an emu, even if you discount size differences). Apparently in some cases there are therapod dinosaur lungs which more closely resemble flightless bird lungs than the lungs of other dinosaurs or reptiles.

This is speculation. Its a moot point as the soft parts that produce the sounds rarely fossilize, it's currently impossible to say what kind of lungs dino's had.edited to add: That last sentence of mine may not be entirely accurate after now reading PS's post.This message has been edited by DrJones*, 10-21-2004 10:33 PM

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*not an actual doctor

How do you figure?Dino/Bird:Calciferous eggsLeg posture leg posture irrevalent to refutation of my hypothesis because legs altered drastically at curse, so it would be a given that cursed dino descendent would not have similar legs to pre-cursed dino/serpent. Remember my hypothesis is about which descended from dino FeathersOnly one found and evidence not substantiated whether this fossil is bird or dino according to my research.Endothermic Not all dinos endothermic according to researchpneumatic bone structure Due to their bulky natures, dinosaurs-the ancestors of birds according to evolutionists-had thick, solid bones. Birds, in contrast, whether living or extinct, have hollow bones that are very light, as they must be in order for flight to take place.
http://www.darwinismrefuted.com/natural_historymigratory please documentsize say what?? Reptiles have larger specimens than birds.
number of heart chambers This likely changed at curse to compensate for different habitat.number of toesnumber of legs Say what?? birds only 2 dinos and modern reptiles 4pelvic structureThe name dinosaur was established by Sir Richard Owen in 1842. Dinosaur comes from the Greek words deinos and sauros (meaning fearfully great and lizard respectively). They are within the Class Reptilia, and have some anatomical and physiological similarities to many modern reptiles, particularly toward large lizards and alligators. Dinosaurs are divided into two orders, Saurischia (reptile-hipped) and Ornithischia (bird-hipped) within the Superorder Archosauria. The saurischians have a pelvis with a forwardly directed pubis bone, where as the ornithischian pubis is parallel to the ischium.

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http://www.hanmansfossils.com/catalogs/ fossil_replicas/dinosaurs/dinosaurs.shtml

Thanks, PS. I'll check out your link. Gotta get some sleep now. A busy day ahead tomorrow, but will return, Lord willing, as soon as I can find time. I am a sole proprietor small businessman with no employees so not a lot of spare time.

Due to their bulky natures, ostriches have thick, solid bones in their legs and elsewhere (though they do have some hollow bones).Likewise, many dinosaurs had some hollow bones.A word of advice, buz - be wary of generalizations when talking about biodiversity...

Wouldn't you agree that many species have a few oddities among them? Don't we go with the by and large for arriving at conclusions as to things like this?Ponder the following which I post before retiring: http://www.darwinismrefuted.com/natural_history

But, no reptiles. All birds are endothermic. All therapods, the dinosaurs believed to be the ancestors of birds, are endothermic. No reptiles are endothermic. Not all dinosaurs had thick, solid bones, just as not all birds have pneumatic bones. Iguanodon and other similar herbivores are known to be migratory; by necessity, their predators, such as the allosaurs, would have had to have been migratory, too. No, Buz, they don't. No reptile is larger than the largest bird. The majority of reptile species, in fact, are the prey of birds. Mammal rodents live in the same habitats; they do fine with four heart chambers. There's no connection between habitat and heart chambering. The connection, again, is activity level - dinosaurs, like birds and mammals, are very active, and need the efficiency of a four-chamber heart. Three-chambered hearts don't deliver enough oxygen to muscle tissues to support the same activity level. No, therapods have 2 legs and 2 arms. They're bipedal, just like birds. Right. Bird-hipped. I think that pretty much says it all, don't you?

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Feathers: Only one found and evidence not substantiated whether this fossil is bird or dino according to my research.

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Firstly, Archaeopteryx to which I suspect you are referring, is not the only feathered fossil. Numerous other theropods, including Protarchaeopteryx, Caudipteryx, Confuciusomis and Sinosauropteryx (all of which are about the size of a medium sized modern bird) have been found to have sported feathers, although most likely not for flight.Secondly, your statement whether this fossil is bird or dino is a non sequitur. Phylogenetically speaking, modern, extant birds are dinosaurs - if we are going to refer to dinosaurs as the basal specimen + all extant and extinct descendents, then we must refer to birds as dinosaurs (i.e. a monophyletic clade).

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pneumatic bone structure: Due to their bulky natures, dinosaurs-the ancestors of birds according to evolutionists-had thick, solid bones. Birds, in contrast, whether living or extinct, have hollow bones that are very light, as they must be in order for flight to take place.

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Utter garbage. Extensive pneumatisation of bones is a characteristic feature of the theropods, including Tyrannosaurus and the Dromaeosauridae.

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number of legs Say what?? birds only 2 dinos and modern reptiles 4

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I'm sorry? If a specimen is bipedal, that is walks on two legs, do you still classify the forelimbs as legs? Would you say the almost vestigial forelimbs of Tyrannosaurus made this dinosaur 'four legged'? Or the oviraptorids and the dromaeosaurids, who didn't use their forelimbs for locomotion, but rather for grasping? You need to be careful as to what you are defining 'four legs' to be, because if you're not careful it will come back to bite you in the bum.

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pelvic structure: The name dinosaur was established by Sir Richard Owen in 1842. Dinosaur comes from the Greek words deinos and sauros (meaning fearfully great and lizard respectively). They are within the Class Reptilia, and have some anatomical and physiological similarities to many modern reptiles, particularly toward large lizards and alligators. Dinosaurs are divided into two orders, Saurischia (reptile-hipped) and Ornithischia (bird-hipped) within the Superorder Archosauria. The saurischians have a pelvis with a forwardly directed pubis bone, where as the ornithischian pubis is parallel to the ischium.

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I can see you just pasted this here from a Dictionary. How is this helping your case? You still haven't accounted for which physiological similarities make them similar to reptiles. I suspect that this quote you pasted comes from a rather outdated source, or a creationist website.RegardsDarwin ReduxThis message has been edited by Darwin Redux, 10-22-2004 01:55 AMThis message has been edited by Darwin Redux, 10-22-2004 02:02 AM

I'm not talking about oddities, I'm talking about form and function - dinosaurs and birds of similar morphology and size have similar hollow/solid bones. Many dinosaurs had hollow bones, not just a few oddities.And again, you gave me a segment to read regarding differences between reptiles and birds. You give me a link to a website with a heck of a lot of writing trying to prove that birds did not evolve from dinosaurs by showing differences between reptiles and birdsEach page of the site starts the same: There is no such thing as "the reptile-bird evolution scenario", and dinosaurs were NOT reptiles, so their entire argument is illogical.Do you see the problem? No one is arguing that birds evolved from reptiles, so the website isn't refuting anything - it's pure propaganda. They created a "reptile-bird" theory that doesn't exist, and that's what they are arguing against, fiction.

buz - I know you have limited time, but I feel you are making arguments that you might not had you taken a moment to glance at my previous post you put off.(You've also answered multiple subsequent posts).You asked for a gator, a bird, and a dino next to each other and I posted them - take a moment to check them out and tell me your impressions.

If Buz believes a serpent(of whatever species) was yakking to Eve, shouldn`t he be hunting for vestigial speech organs?Air and Phonation

I buz, am, according to Percy and Schrafinator, suppose to be the prominent obfuscator here in town, but alas, this thread has me having to deal with a whole lot more of it from you people than I'm dishing out. You obfuscatingly cropped out some pertinent words from my stated proposition which was: Take a gator and stand him by dinos like tyrannosaurus rex, allosaurus, or gorgasaurus libratus and go figure whether if any of these dino's legs were cropped, would gator most resemble these or any given bird. With legs cropped, cropped dino would have most likely have resembled gator. You must also consider that the Biblical record in Genesis three, which is the text that inspired my hypothesis also stated that the curse of the serpent also implied the head positioned near the ground, i.e. injesting dust, so imo, the cursed descendent would not have a raised head as your model pictures, but that more like the models I've mentioned in my statement. As well, remember, the maker/designer, Jehovah, who would have done the adjusting would likely have straightened the neck so as to render it more compatible to the shorter creature.

My understanding is that there has never been a complete dino recovered. Correct if mistaken. Then too, would it be possible to determine whether vesitgal speech organs had been present? I seriously doubt it. Please remember also that I have posted that it is not stated in the Biblical text whether this ability of the Edenic serpent was supernaturally given for the occasion or an ability the pre-cursed serpent had due to the superior intelligence these creatures were to have had over the other beasts of the field.

Buz buzzin out for work. I'll check in again when I can.