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Author Topic:   My problem with evolution
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 101 of 120 (24038)
11-24-2002 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by John
11-24-2002 11:02 AM


quote:
Don't expect everybody else to have your assumptions.
Why not robinrohan, this is precisely what you expect?
[/B][/QUOTE]
Ok, John you can have your assumptions and I can have mine. I've been assuming all this time that you exist, but now I think you might be a recurrent nightmare.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by John, posted 11-24-2002 11:02 AM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by John, posted 11-24-2002 2:52 PM robinrohan has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 103 of 120 (24120)
11-24-2002 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by John
11-24-2002 2:52 PM


My point is this: your pose of radical empiricism is just that: a pose. Radical empiricism is impossible. If you like, I will explain why.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by John, posted 11-24-2002 2:52 PM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by John, posted 11-24-2002 11:29 PM robinrohan has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 106 of 120 (24275)
11-25-2002 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Quetzal
11-25-2002 3:11 AM


I keep coming back to the idea that, as you explained, we have an unified image in an electrical but not in a pictorial sense. So it looks to me like a leap from the electrical to the pictorial. That leap we call the "mental."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Quetzal, posted 11-25-2002 3:11 AM Quetzal has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by John, posted 11-25-2002 4:45 PM robinrohan has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 108 of 120 (24282)
11-25-2002 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by John
11-24-2002 11:29 PM


John, I'm tired of your insults.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by John, posted 11-24-2002 11:29 PM John has not replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 109 of 120 (24285)
11-25-2002 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by John
11-25-2002 4:45 PM


No, computers don't. They produce a pictorial image. Are you suggesting that the brain produces a physical pictorial image?
I've already talked about this with Obsidian and Quetval and they agreed that the brain does not produce a pictorial image, only an electrical image. What that means is the comparison with computers does not hold.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by John, posted 11-25-2002 4:45 PM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by John, posted 11-25-2002 11:46 PM robinrohan has replied
 Message 111 by Zhimbo, posted 11-26-2002 2:54 AM robinrohan has replied
 Message 112 by Zhimbo, posted 11-26-2002 2:55 AM robinrohan has not replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 113 of 120 (24386)
11-26-2002 8:27 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by John
11-25-2002 11:46 PM


John:
computer electrical info.=brain's electrical info.
monitor for a computer---produces pictorial image
brain--does not produce pictorial image.
Nonetheless we have imaginary pictorial images--the "monitor" is the mind.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by John, posted 11-25-2002 11:46 PM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by John, posted 11-26-2002 9:45 AM robinrohan has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 114 of 120 (24387)
11-26-2002 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by Zhimbo
11-26-2002 2:54 AM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Zhimbo:
[B] suspect it is, in principle, possible to make a monitor image of a human mental image. Not possible in reality in the forseeable future, but that's not the point.
If that is true, is there any real difference between computers "images" and mental images? If that isn't true, why isn't it true?
If we could do this it still doesn't solve the problem. Something in the brain allows us to vilsualize imaginary images. Maybe you could do it artificially but now it is being done naturally. How? The mental leap. The brain produces no images, only info. Nonetheless we are able to visualize images.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Zhimbo, posted 11-26-2002 2:54 AM Zhimbo has not replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 116 of 120 (24458)
11-26-2002 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by John
11-26-2002 9:45 AM


There is no jump to mentality in the computer becuase the pictorial image produced on tne monitor, if it is produced, is physical. We can measure the size of it if we want to. There is no pictorial image inside the computer--just info. There is also no pictorial image inside the brain--just info. Nonetheless we can visualize pictorially. When we imagine we don't in our imagination "see" a network of neurons. We see a picture. A network of neurons is not identical to a picture, even though the info. of the different parts of the picture is contained in that network and is produced by that network. The picture is a different form of the same information, but the fact that it is a different form makes it different.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by John, posted 11-26-2002 9:45 AM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by John, posted 11-27-2002 12:26 PM robinrohan has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 118 of 120 (24657)
11-27-2002 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by John
11-27-2002 12:26 PM


John, what do you mean we don't "see the painting"? Are you suggesting that what I see is an illusion? If so, that illusion is the leap of mentality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by John, posted 11-27-2002 12:26 PM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by John, posted 11-27-2002 7:42 PM robinrohan has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 120 of 120 (24772)
11-28-2002 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by John
11-27-2002 7:42 PM


Well, John, the imaginary image has to be somewhere. It's not in the brain. You can search all over the brain and never find it--not the pictorial image, that is. What you find is electically coded info.
So where is the image? Well, it's not in space at all. It's purely mental. Now to say it "exists" is problematical since it's imaginary, but you can't call it nothing either. So I guess it exists (in the mind).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by John, posted 11-27-2002 7:42 PM John has not replied

  
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