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Author Topic:   Evolution of Eyes
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2669 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 6 of 52 (459571)
03-08-2008 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by RAZD
03-08-2008 4:28 PM


I'd just like to add that Pharyngula has a brief, very easy to read post on the evolution of the eye (in which he addresses the independent evolution of the eye in several different species).
Eyeing the Evolutionary Past
http://www.seedmagazine.com/...ing_the_evolutionary_past.php
Here's a taste:
While eyes are common in larger animal species, about a third of all animal phyla lack eyes altogether; sea urchins do not bother with them, nor do many worms. Another third have eyes that look rudimentary to us; spots and patches and pits that can sense whether it's night or day or whether a shadow is passing overhead, but that do not form any kind of image. The final third have true image-forming eyes that can capture a picture of what's going on around them and pass that on to some kind of brain or nerve net. The phyla that have true eyes are a diverse subset of the multicellular animals, including jellyfish and sea anemones, molluscs, annelid worms, onychophora (velvet worms), arthropods, and us chordates, which is a strange distribution. It's as if eyes popped up in scattered lineages interspersed with groups that lack them. For a long time, one of the hypotheses to explain all these eyes was that they evolved independently, multiple times within the animal kingdom.
ABE:
Dawkins has a nice eye evo article, too.
"Speaking as a physicist, I cannot believe that there has been enough time for an organ as complicated as the eye to have evolved from nothing. Do you really think there has been enough time?" (An argument that stems) from the Argument from Personal Incredulity. ... I have usually fallen back on the sheer magnitude of geological time.
It now appears that the shattering enormity of geological time is a steam hammer to crack a peanut. A recent study by a pair of Swedish scientists, Dan Nilson and Susanne Pelger, suggests that a ludicrously small fraction of that time would have been plenty.
When one says "the" eye, by the way, one implicitly means the vertebrate eye, but serviceable image-forming eyes have evolved between 40 and 60 times, independently from scratch, in many different invertebrate groups. Among these 40-plus independent evolutions, at least nine distinct design principles have been discovered, including pinhole eyes, two kinds of camera-lens eyes, curved-reflector ("satellite dish") eyes, and several kinds of compound eyes. Nilsson and Pelger have concentrated on camera eyes with lenses, such as are well developed in vertebrates and octopuses.
The first was: is there a smooth gradient of change, from flat skin to full camera eye, such that every intermediate is an improvement?
...
Second, how long would the necessary quantity of evolutionary change take?
But even with these conservative assumptions, the time taken to evolve a fish eye from fiat skin was minuscule: fewer than 400,000 generations. For the kinds of small animals we are talking about, we can assume one generation per year, so it seems that it would take less than half a million years to evolve a good camera eye.
Page not found – Marcus du Sautoy
There's your answer, Lys. Less than half a million years.
Edited by molbiogirl, : No reason given.

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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2669 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 7 of 52 (459573)
03-08-2008 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Lyston
03-07-2008 10:05 PM


The eyes of the organism is very similar to the Ophiocoma Wendtii's eyes, something that exists today.
I get a distinct whiff of "If it exists today ("unchanged" from its ancient cousin), then doesn't that disprove evolution?" off of this quote.
Is that your intent?

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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2669 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 9 of 52 (459575)
03-08-2008 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Lyston
03-07-2008 10:05 PM


Here's a handy pic (from wiki) that shows the various stages of the evolution of the eye.

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Replies to this message:
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2669 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 12 of 52 (459579)
03-08-2008 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Lyston
03-08-2008 4:49 PM


More of, from what I understand from the pamphlet "That was pretty complex for back then, seeing as organisms still have such a structure."
The fact that eyes are a highly conserved feature is unremarkable. Evolutionarily conserved features are common. Oh so very common.
Furthermore, the eye of the brittlestar (Ophiocoma wendtii) is nothing like the eye of the trilobite.
It turns out the dorsal side of the brittle star is covered with microscopic lenses embedded in its skeleton, making the entire back of the creature into a compound eye.
http://www.biomechanics.bio.uci.edu/...ittlestar/brittle.htm
Although they were not the first animals with eyes, trilobites developed one of the first sophisticated visual systems in the animal kingdom. The majority of trilobites bore a pair of compound eyes (made up of many lensed units). They typically occupied the outer edges of the fixigena (fixed cheeks) on either side of the glabella, adjacent to the facial sutures. At least one suborder of trilobites, the Agnostina, are thought to be primarily eyeless. None have ever been found with eyes. In contrast, a few secondarily eyeless species (in which a clear evolutionary trend toward reduced eye size with eventual disappearence of eyes altogether) have developed within several groups, even those known for large, well-developed eyes (e.g., Phacopina).
The Trilobite Eye
Edited by molbiogirl, : No reason given.

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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2669 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 13 of 52 (459580)
03-08-2008 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Lyston
03-08-2008 4:53 PM


Yeah, I saw that before making this thread. I'm curious about the transition between "c" and "d" on that.
The explanation in the wiki article suggested earlier covers that aspect of eye evolution.
Evolution of the eye - Wikipedia

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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2669 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 24 of 52 (459990)
03-11-2008 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Lyston
03-11-2008 7:56 PM


But aren't they both just a cluster of lenses that group together to form an eye? The placing is different, as they are different species, but to me they sound like the same general idea.
There are several different kinds of compound eyes.
Please read the material I post more carefully.
To repeat:
MBG in Message 6 writes:
Among these 40-plus independent evolutions, at least nine distinct design principles have been discovered, including pinhole eyes, two kinds of camera-lens eyes, curved-reflector ("satellite dish") eyes, and several kinds of compound eyes.
To suggest that "they're the same, just positioned differently" is akin to suggesting that graphite and diamonds are "the same", the atoms are just "positioned differently".
For more information about compound eyes, check wiki:
Compound eye - Wikipedia

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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2669 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 32 of 52 (460054)
03-12-2008 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Equinox
03-12-2008 7:06 AM


Re: Which Bodily Secretion?
However, there probably are extant animals with eyes like d, does anyone know how their eye fluid progresses over their lives?
The fluid doesn't "fill" an empty socket.
Two tissue layers form. When the two layers separate, an aqueous humour fills the gap.
The transparent cells over the pinhole eye's aperture split into two layers, with liquid in between. The liquid originally served as a circulatory fluid for oxygen, nutrients, wastes, and immune functions, allowing greater total thickness and higher mechanical protection. In addition, multiple interfaces between solids and liquids increase optical power, allowing wider viewing angles and greater imaging resolution. Again, the division of layers may have originated with the shedding of skin; intracellular fluid may infill naturally depending on layer depth.
Again. Lys. A little effort on your part (like reading the links we provide) will go a long way.
Edited by molbiogirl, : wiki quote

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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2669 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 35 of 52 (460145)
03-12-2008 11:47 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Granny Magda
03-12-2008 9:56 PM


I think that it would be helpful if Lyston were to post a bit more from this pamphlet, the whole thing if it's at all practical.
Be even better if he posted a link.
I googled his quote and came up with nada.
Instead, I found this:
"But if we look at the individual elements of the trilobite eye, we find that the lens systems were very different from what we now have. Riccardo Levi-Setti (a Field Museum research associate in geology and professor of physics at the University of Chicago) has recently done some spectacular work on the optics of these lens systems. Figure 7 shows sketches of a common type of trilobite lens. Each lens is a doublet (that is, made up of two lenses. The lower lens is shaded in these sketches and the upper one is blank. The shape of the boundary between the two lenses is unlike any now in use either by humans or animals. But the shape is nearly identical to designs published independently by Descartes and Huygens in the seventeenth century. The Descartes and Huygens designs had the purpose of avoiding spherical aberration and were what is known as aplanatic lenses. The only significant difference between them and the trilobite lens is that the Descartes and Huygens lenses were not doublets - that is, they did not have the lower lens. But, as Levi-Setti has shown, for these designs to work underwater where the trilobite lived, the lower lens was necessary. Thus, the trilobites 450 million years ago used an optimal design which would require a well trained and imaginative optical engineer to develop today-or one who was familiar with the seventeenth century optical literature." (Raup D.M., "Conflicts Between Darwin and Paleontology," Field Museum of Natural History Bulletin, Field Museum of Natural History: Chicago IL, January 1979, Vol. 50, No. 1, pp.22-29, p.24).
iiNet | naked dsl - broadband - adsl - phone - voip

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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2669 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 37 of 52 (460411)
03-14-2008 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by AnswersInGenitals
03-14-2008 7:05 PM


Re: Mammalian eyes are doublets.
AIG ...
I mentioned the differences between trilobite and brittlestar eyes earlier. (Some creo thought they were "the same thing".) That's why I highlighted that passage.
ABE:
In other words, the creos can't get their stories straight.
Edited by molbiogirl, : No reason given.

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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2669 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 41 of 52 (460679)
03-17-2008 11:16 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Lyston
03-17-2008 9:15 PM


Lyston,
Did it ever occur to you to google "trilobite eye evolution"?
The first hit.
The Trilobite Eye

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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2669 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 43 of 52 (461766)
03-27-2008 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by TheWay
03-27-2008 5:48 PM


I would like you to elaborate on these transitional forms, and be specific please. I am currently researching the topic of transitional forms and transitional eyes would be greatly appreciated.
I suggest you do your own homework.
This very point has been covered at least 3 times in this thread alone.
If, after having read the thread, you have any specific questions about a particular aspect of "transitional" forms, I would be more than happy to answer them.

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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2669 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 50 of 52 (463344)
04-15-2008 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by godservant
04-15-2008 12:37 PM


It's a natural process that takes place every time an egg is fertilized. Nothing remotely new or dramatic.
Wrong. The eye does not develop "that way" as an embryo develops.
If you have evidence to the contrary, please post a link to that information.

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