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Author | Topic: Hypermacroevolution? Hypermicroevolution | |||||||||||||||||||||||
fallacycop Member (Idle past 5548 days) Posts: 692 From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil Joined: |
mjfloresta writes:
Your distinction between Macroevolution and Microevolution makes no sence to me. Macroevolution suggests increase in complexity..such as the derivation of multicellularity from unicellularity.. Microevolution, on the other hand, simply refers to the diversification of a population due to variation of the genetic material (caused by recombination, genetic drift, chromosomal translocations, possibly (although I have my doubts) mutations)... you define Macroevolution as anything capable of increasing complexity. But then you went ahead and cited recombination, genetic drift, chromosomal translocations, possibly mutations as examples of Microevolution. Since all these processes seem perfectly capable of leading to increased complexity, it would appear that your definitions are not consistent. Could you please explain?
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fallacycop Member (Idle past 5548 days) Posts: 692 From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil Joined: |
Faith writes:
Man, that makes no sense. How can two or three cats have stupendous genetic richness, given that each cat can have at most two different alleles of any given gene? (being diploid organisms and all) No, because the genome would still have been huge by comparison with today's. At most I would suppose there might have been two, possibly three cats on the ark. I do think one might have been enough even in Noah's time, however, because of the stupendous original genetic richness. But all this is guesswork. I wouldn't know how to begin to make the necessary calculations. I’m sure you understand the concept of a population bottleneck (Given what you stated about cheetahs). What makes you think hat this bottlenecking wouldn't apply to the Noah's ark?
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fallacycop Member (Idle past 5548 days) Posts: 692 From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil Joined: |
Faith writes:
That is my point. You have to assume a bunch of things, but there is no reason to believe any of those things are true (and many to believe that they aren't). This is not how science works. But that may be how religious dogma works. Easy to conclude that we may be talking about religious dogma, but we certaily are not talking about a new scientific development.
We have to assume more genes in the earlier varieties of the Kind that were on the ark, a bigger genome. We have to assume that Noah and his family of three sons and their wives had the genetic capacity to be the progenitors of everybody on earth, all the Semites and the Africans and the Europeans and the Chinese and the Indians and the native populations of the Americas. Implies a large genetic ability no longer seen. How this was shown in the genome we don't know.
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fallacycop Member (Idle past 5548 days) Posts: 692 From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil Joined: |
Faith writes: Anything goes in order to get where you want. I wouldn't call that coherent and logical Well, if you are going to talk to creationists there is no point in wasting your breath telling us our premises don't meet with your approval. We know they don't. But they are the basis for everything we put together, and it does hold together quite coherently and logically. That in itself ought to be some validation of it. But it doesn't matter. What you call religious dogma is simply truth and science can certainly be built on truth. Now you are just begging the question.
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fallacycop Member (Idle past 5548 days) Posts: 692 From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil Joined: |
nemesis_juggernaut writes: The problem is that nobody has given an acceptable definition of what macroevolution is supposed to mean yet. You have to do that before you go aroud asking for a good example of one
would somebody provide for the board a legitimate piece of evidence of a macroevolutionary event of speciation?
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fallacycop Member (Idle past 5548 days) Posts: 692 From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil Joined: |
nemesis_juggernaut writes: Good point. this is yet another good argument in favor of the point of view that the earth must be very old indeed (billions of years), in order for all the observed species to have had time to evolve.
The problem is that no one has been able expedite the process via controlled selection, mutations, or genetic drifting to show clear signs of speciation. The best that we have done is to create sub-species. That is not a formula for how there are billions of species on the planet.
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fallacycop Member (Idle past 5548 days) Posts: 692 From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil Joined: |
nemesis_juggernaut writes: All the dog breeds are still very similar genetically, though they may look very different form each other. That's not the case when you compare similar species (like horses and donkeys). often times the two species don't even have the same number of cromossomes. As you pointed out, all these differences between closely related species would take time to acumulate.
Perhaps. I'm not settled on a young-earth model, however, I feel that its significance has been undermined rather unduly. Case in point, its only taken 3 centruries to produce a magnificent array of canine and equine variation. That isn't very long at all. So if we can spit that many out in 300 hundred years of trying, what can nature spit out all on its own through selection? nemesis_juggernaut writes: You can think whatever you want, it's a free country(world).
I think 5,000 years is a sufficient amount of time produce such variations, particularly when its been humans that have had alot to do with the migration of certain animals such as dogs and horses.
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fallacycop Member (Idle past 5548 days) Posts: 692 From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil Joined: |
nemesis_juggernaut writes: And I would like for someone to give a clear explanation of what is macroevolution because up to now this term means nothing to me.
So, I would like for someone to give clear examples of such a phenomena as macroevolution in nature. I mean, the inability to procreate should not be the sole reason for speciation. Case in point: A Great Dane and a Chihuahua may not be able to breed for anatomical reasons, but on the genetic level there should be no problem because they are both canine.
I think you are missing the reason for taking reproductive viability as the criteria for speciation. It is not intended as a measure of how far apart genetically the two groups have become. The point is that once all reproduction between the two groups ceases, there will be no more gene flow between them and they will grow apart as different mutations acumulate over time. There have not been enough time for much genetic difference to acumulate between Chihuahuas and Great Danes. By the way, gene flow is still a possibility between them, eventhough they cannot mate direcly, because there are many intermediary breeds to bridge the gene flow gap, so you are right, they are both members of the same species.
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fallacycop Member (Idle past 5548 days) Posts: 692 From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil Joined: |
nemesis_juggernaut writes: That's good then, because nobody should be expecting to find anything in that transitional limbo (wherever that is). If all species are continuosly evolving then all fossils should be expected to be well-established fully formed organisms.
There are over a million fossil remains housed in various museums and universities the world over. None of them have been able to link one specie to the next. All we ever see is well-established organisms in full formation, not in any kind of transitional limbo.So, what compelling reason is there to assume that macroevoultion exists when its never been witnessed and its never been recorded in the fossil record? I've never seen a good definition of macroevolution. I see no good reason to reject my definition that macroevolution is just a lot of microevolution put together, just as a thousand mile walk is just a lot of steps put together.
What is crappy is how the usage of radiometric dating methods often employ circular reasoning. I don't know a single instance of that. would you care to elaborate?
If scientist witness a new species of bacteria emerging in a lab, is that enough evidence, or do bacteria not really count? What will you consider to be good enough evidence for either side to be convincing? Its hard to say because there are no examples of such, therefore, its hard to imagine what it might look like.
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fallacycop Member (Idle past 5548 days) Posts: 692 From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil Joined: |
I see no such corroboration for any macroevolutionary process This definition of macroevolution better start coming sometime soon because I am starting to have trouble keeping my BS detector quiet.
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