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Author | Topic: What is the basis for a Creationist argument against Evolution? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Loudmouth Inactive Member |
Stephen,
Just a critique, not a personal attack. I hope by the end you can see the difference between a scientific and a philisophical theory.
quote: In science, we look for a measureable physical/chemical mechanisms that can be measured and are consistent with the data. Saying "God created the universe" falls short of this requirement. If you could show HOW God created the universe and illustrate the ongoing mechanism in physical/chemical units, then you would have a scientific theory. Saying "God did it" may loosely fit under hypothesis, but only in a very general way. There is no way to test the mechanisms. For example, we can measure the mutations in bacteria in scientific units, say 1 base change/million bacteria. Now, how many "God did it"'s are there in one million bacteria? I'm not trying to belittle creationism here, only showing the difference between creation theory and scientific theory.
quote: There is not logical or chemical/physical requirement for a deity if life is present. This is an arbitrary postulation, a guess with no evidenciary support. As to sensory information, science has extended our perception of the world many fold thanks to the development of tools and instruments. The eye can't see the proton spin in a molecule of octane, but an NMR machine can. We can't see the wobble of a sun due to a close orbiting planet in the distant sky with our naked eyes, but a telescope can. The NMR machine and the radio telescope work within scientific theories to give us reliable information. However, even as we extend our perception farther and farther into the universe and the micro-verse, we never sense the machinations of a supernatural entity. Could a deity exist? Maybe. Will science ever find one? Probably not, and the chances are shrinking every day.
quote: I think even the most ardent fundamentalist christian can agree with this statement: "God did not write the Bible." Saying "God inspired the writings of the Biblical Authors" is probably a closer approximation to the belief held by most christians. Please correct me if you feel I have overstep my bounds here. What it comes down to, though, is that MEN wrote the bible. As a historical document, I would agree that it is a very fascinating book, as is the Epic of Gilgamesh. But how do we determine what is inspired and what is directly conveyed? How do we separate the relation of a story through allegory and the relation of a story through actual events? How do we trust the fallibility of man to transmit an infallible message? In science, the fallibility of man is drastically reduced through open methodology and repeatibility. If someone can't copy your work, then the work is meaningless. If creation theory is going to further itself, it must separate itself from the possible fallibility of the biblical authors by substantiating the six day creation within a scientific framework instead of through a faith derived axioms. As to testing the Creator through tithing, I have tried that and it didn't work. But that wasn't the reason I tithed, I did it because it made me feel part of the christian community. Anecdotal evidence may show a connection, but you would be hard pressed to find a double-blind study that illustrates a tie between tithing and wish granting. For instance, do you think Steve Forbes or Bill Gates tithe? They seem pretty blessed. Anecdotal evidence is fun, but ultimately useless.
quote: The Creator seems to bless non-christians such as Hindus in India and Confuscians and Buddhists in China. Believing in the Christian God does not explain population booms in those countries, and so it doesn't explain the population booms in Christian/Creationist countries either. Education and Economic levels in general, irrespective of evo/creo, seem to be correlated with reproductive rates. Without a bias for one religion over another, IOW a subjective bias, this theory falls apart. On top of this, mechanisms are still lacking. What makes God fearing creationists more productive? Well, "God did it".
quote: The effects of sexual selection and instinct evolution have been understood for quite a while, and are part of the theory. It still doesn't rule out opening new niches when competition over resources causes uneven reproductive values between two populations.
quote: Anecdotal without reference to a mechanism. This is important. For instance, cancer rates can be correlated to the proximity to power lines. However, without a mechanism by which high voltage and EMF can cause cancer the relationship can not be drawn. I could also correlate many unrelated things such as dog collar colors and the average temperature during March. I haven't read up on "overpopulation theory", maybe you could start a new thread, I would be interested. But I am guessing that nowhere in the refutation does it say that lower reproductive rates are caused by not believing in Vishnu. Why not? Because it is not scientific.
quote: Where did you show that evolution was implausible? I must have missed it. Maybe you were referencing a previous post? But just a question for you about "breeding out evolutionists". If evolutionists were breed out and every scientific book was lost, could the theory be rediscovered? I would say yes. If all christians were breed out and the Bible lost, could the Christian Creator be rediscovered? No. It exists as a belief system, not something that was discovered through scientific inquiry into the natural world. Creationism is the propagation of ideas while evolutionary theory is the best explanation of physical observations. Oh, and the other scientific theories could be rediscovered as well, such as Gravity, Quantum Mechanics, Fluid Dynamics, etc. Why? Because they are based on observation and are not dependent on a faith system.
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Loudmouth Inactive Member |
quote: I have yet to see anything approaching science in ID theory. It is based on personal incredulity instead of data. If you want I can show you a fossil progression that shows the development of an IC system in the middle ear. That's right, remove one piece of the middle ear and the whole thing won't work, yet the parts can be shown to have evolved. This one counterexample shoots a big hole in Behe's argument, ie irreducibly complex systems can evolve and have evolved. He just prefers to talk about the biological systems that don't fossilize so that fossil evidence can't falsify his assumptions.
quote: I completely agree that science should never quit investigating and experimenting. However, we shouldn't take backwards steps either. In physics classes, for example, they no longer try and measure the "ether" through which electricity passes, no longer look for demons that cause disease but rather bacteria and viruses. The problem for a young earth is that it is falsified by the data time and time again. Old Earth Creationism has the problem of explanatory power, as does ID theory, and also can not explain the fossil record in the absence of evolution. Oh, and by the way, I did start out being a creationist and was active in the church for many of my younger years. Once I was exposed to science (early in childhood) I read what I could, from both sides (science books and the Bible). Final conclusion for me is that science strives to find correct theories through open methodology and corrects itself with internal controls. Creationism tries to make ad hoc rationalizations for things which they needed no scientific proof to believe in in the first place. Once you understand the science you will understand why some of us are short with some creationists, look for references to "Dr. Dino" for example. For me evolutionary theory is no different than quantum theories, gravitational theories, relativistic theory; they all blend into Science. I come to these boards hoping that people will walk away with an understanding of science in place of the misunderstandings they came in with. Creationists seem to want to propagate misunderstanding so that people will believe as they do.
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