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Author Topic:   Macroevolution: Its all around us...
TimChase
Inactive Member


Message 191 of 306 (217926)
06-18-2005 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by EZscience
04-14-2005 3:37 PM


Ring Species are a Good Demo as Well
Actually, one of the more interesting examples of speciation being caught in the act are the so-called "ring species." You take a population of birds (for example), place them at the north end of a mountain range, the birds begin to branch out along the western and the eastern side of the mountain range, headed south. At any location along either side of the mountain range, the micro-evolutionary changes do not result in any sort of reproductive isolation for that location. However, by the time the two branches meet at the south end of the mountain range, the western branch and the eastern branch are reproductively isolated.
The genetic makeup of the populations anywhere along the mountain range (except form the south end) vary in a fairly continuous fashion, much like grey may vary continuously to white or to black, but by the time one reaches the south end, what one is dealing with are essentially two different species. At the same time, one might regard the whole population as being of the same species -- but one good forest fire would result in the kind of isolation required to regard the distinct populations at the south end as different species by any definition of the term.
Ring Species: Unusual Demonstrations of Speciation
http://www.actionbioscience.org/evolution/irwin.html
from
Action Bioscience.Org
http://www.actionbioscience.org/

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by EZscience, posted 04-14-2005 3:37 PM EZscience has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by EZscience, posted 06-18-2005 5:32 PM TimChase has replied

TimChase
Inactive Member


Message 193 of 306 (217932)
06-18-2005 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by EZscience
06-17-2005 12:19 PM


A Retroviral Engine for Macroevolution
Hey,
Looks great! Definite time to bookmark. But now for something completely different (well, not that different, actually)...
A Retroviral Engine for Macroevolution
Some time ago, scientists where examining the placenta of a baboon, and through an electron microscope, they noticed a familiar form of budding -- it appeared to be a retroviral infection. Moreover, there was the telltale reverse transcriptase expression which confirmed the presence of retroviruses. However, the baboon and its offspring were quite healthy. Examining the placenta of many other mammalian species, they arrived at the same results -- all placenta were infected with retroviruses -- specifically endogenous retroviruses being passed along the germline, retroviruses which were transcriptionally active in both the placenta and a variety of tissues during normal embryonic development -- although the species of retroviruses differed from mammal to mammal. What they found is that these retroviruses create a barrier to the mother's immune system, a barrier without which the developing embryo would rejected.
Now consider: much like the platypus, at one time, all mammals layed eggs. But then at various points, some populations of mammals were infected by exogenous retroviruses in one epidemic or another. Oftentimes, retroviruses simply wiped out entire populations, but occasionally, they infected the germline itself, being passed along in a Mandelian fashion and lost the ability to exogenously reproduce. At this point, a largely symbiotic relationship between virus and host will develop -- otherwise the virus will simply be eliminated through the natural selection of the host. But what is a retrovirus capable of doing quite easily (with little or no investment) which would require a great deal of investment on the part of the host? Evade the immune system -- create a barrier to it. Retroviral infection is what made placentas possible as an alternative to eggs in protecting the embryo from the mother's immune system. And live birth is what made the larger brains of mammals possible, which has taken the predator/prey-dynamic to entirely new levels.
Here are a few articles for anyone who might wish to look into this further:
Human endogenous retroviruses in health and disease: a symbiotic perspective
Frank P. Ryan
J R Soc Med 2004; 97:560-565
December 2004
http://www.rsm.ac.uk/new/pdfs/j_art_dec04.pdf
Expressions and Functions of Human Endogenous Retroviruses in the Placenta: An Update
A. Muir, A. Lever and A. Moffet
Placenta (2004), 25, Supplement A, Trophoblast Research, Vol. 18 S16-S25
Accepted 5 January 2004
Domain Registered at Safenames
The viruses in all of us: Characteristics and biological significance of human endogenous retrovirus sequences
Roswitha Lower, Johannes Lower, and Reinhad Kurth
Poc. Natl. Acad. Sci USA Vol. 93, pp. 5177-5184
May 1996
Just a moment...
If people want something more accessible for various audiences, they might try:
Evolution of Retroviruses: Fossils in our DNA
John M. Coffin
Proceedings of The American Philosophical Society Vol. 148, No.3, pp. 264-280
September 2004
http://www.aps-pub.com/proceedings/1483/480302.pdf
Can Viruses Make Us Human?
Luis P. Villarreal
Proceedings of the American Philosophical Society Vol. 148, No. 3,
September 2004, pp. 296-323
http://www.aps-pub.com/proceedings/1483/480304.pdf
The role of retroviruses in human life and disease
Medical and health information
You might also want to check out some new books (I haven't had the chance to see them as of yet):
"Viruses and the Evolution of Life" by Luis P. Villarreal
"Retroviruses and Primate Evolution" (by large collection of authors)
This message has been edited by TimChase, 06-18-2005 06:36 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by EZscience, posted 06-17-2005 12:19 PM EZscience has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by EZscience, posted 06-18-2005 9:53 PM TimChase has replied

TimChase
Inactive Member


Message 194 of 306 (217933)
06-18-2005 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by EZscience
06-18-2005 5:32 PM


Re: Ring Species are a Good Demo as Well
Glad to be here. Actually I was finding the other list to be fairly depressing for reasons which should be obvious.
Oh, by the way, the little bit about retroviruses was actually meant to be a response to your piece regarding small changes in one of the thirtynine hox resulting in large changes in body plans. I will see if I can move it over to the right place.
[Type, type, type, copy-paste,... OK. Now time to delete. Woops! Don't have the authority. Geez!]
This message has been edited by TimChase, 06-18-2005 06:29 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by EZscience, posted 06-18-2005 5:32 PM EZscience has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by AdminNosy, posted 06-18-2005 6:51 PM TimChase has not replied

TimChase
Inactive Member


Message 195 of 306 (217935)
06-18-2005 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by EZscience
06-17-2005 12:19 PM


Removed by author
Removed by author (duplicate)
This message has been edited by TimChase, 06-18-2005 06:32 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by EZscience, posted 06-17-2005 12:19 PM EZscience has not replied

TimChase
Inactive Member


Message 198 of 306 (217978)
06-18-2005 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by EZscience
06-18-2005 9:53 PM


Symbiosis and Evolution
Actually, there has been a great deal of controversy regarding the role of symbiosis in evolution. It goes back as far as about nine years after the publication of "The Origin of the Species." But I believe that in many ways, symbiosis has been a major driving force in evolution.
For example, it had been assumed that fungus was essentially non-productive, and if it entered a relationship with some other organism, the relationship was one between parasite and host. But while investigating the roots of an apparently healthy tree at one time, it was discovered that those roots were infested with a fungus. More investigation lead to the discovery that different species of tree typically play host to several different species of fungus at the same time. And in fact, such trees are incapable of living without their fungal symbionts: the roots of the trees, once stripped of their fungal symbionts, are stubby and relatively small, whereas the fungal symbionts are much larger, with a far more extensive web of fine branches extending out, increasing the tree's uptake of neutrients and water typically by somewhere between a factor of 100 and a 1000.
We now know that mitochondria were originally bacteria which entered into an endosymbiotic relationship with eukaryotes approximately two billion years ago, and chloroplasts have a similar bacterial origin -- as indicated by their circular genes. At the time that mitochondria entered the endosymbiotic relationship, they had about 3000 genes. Today I believe they have about 35, with most of their genetic material having gradually migrated to the nucleus of the eukaryotic cell. The closest known non-endosymbiotic relative of the mitochondria is the rickettsia bacteria, which is responsible for typhoid. The closest known non-endosymbiotic relative of the chloroplast would be a species of cyanobacteria, which is more commonly known as blue-green algae.
Of course, viruses have historically been viewed simply as parasites, both reproductively and, genetically. It had been common to assume that if the host of a virus and the virus itself contained some of the same genetic material found nowhere else, then surely this genetic material originally belonged to the host, and the virus had simply acquired it from the host. (In fact, a common view at one time was that viruses were originally part of the genomes of hosts, then somehow became separated, but "return" to the nucleus for the purpose of reproduction.)
What this does not take into account is the fact that viruses typically mutate approximately 1000 times more quickly than their more conservative, less error-prone hosts, and when under stress are able to increase the speed at which they mutate by approximately another factor of a 1000. It is a safe bet that if a genetic innovation is present in both, the innovation was the product of the virus, not the host.
Thus, for example, we are fairly confident nowadays that retrotransposons originated with retroviruses. And currently, the only hypothetical origin being discussed for transposons (as far as I have been able to gather) are DNA viruses.
Likewise, in the human genome, we appear to have roughly 30,000 endogenous retroviruses -- three of which are at a "low" level of activity in normal placental and embryonic tissue development. Some of course are implicated in various kinds of disease, such as leukemia, cancers, and schizophrenia, but the fact that most people are able to live quite well with 30,000 endogenous retroviruses suggests that the vast majority are well-behaved, after having existed in a symbiotic relationship with their host over perhaps millions or tens of millions of years. And it has recently been suggested that some play a regulatory role in the expression of other genes -- although this is fairly tentative at present.
However, the fact that they are well-behaved now does not mean that their ancestors were similarly well-behaved. One of the endogenous retroviruses involved in human placental and embryonic development is HERV-K, which entered the genome for the first time approximately 30 MYA (shortly after the old world monkeys separated from the new world monkeys), and most recently about 5 MYA. Currently, we have approximately 50 HERV-K proviruses. From what they have been able to gather, HERV-K is closely related to HIV-1.
While endogenous retroviruses account for only about one to three percent of the human genome, roughly half of the human genome consists of retroelements -- most likely the wreckage of earlier ERV proviruses or artifacts of earlier retroviral infections.
In essence, if we are talking about a given endogenous retrovirus, a retrotransposon or transposon, what we are talking about is lateral gene transfer. Thus viruses can have a far greater impact upon host evolution than the simple predator/prey-relationship in which they were first identified would first suggest. (Similar lateral gene transfer between host and bacteria had been suggested as a driving force in eukaryotic host evolution. However, currently the literature seems to be turning against this.)
Here are a few more articles which may be of interest...
Periodic Explosive Expansion of Human retroelements Associated with the Evolution of the Hominoid Primate
Tae-Min Kim, Seung-Jin Hong, Mun-Gan Rhyu
J Korean Med Sci 2004; 19: 177-85
http://jkms.kams.or.kr/2004/pdf/04177.pdf
'Punctuated' evolution in the human genome (popularized)
Medical and health information
An ancient family of human endogenous retroviruses encodes a functional homolog of the HIV-1 Rev protein
Jin Yang, Hal P. Bogerd, Sheila Peng, Heather Wiegand, Ray Truant, and Bryan R. Cullen
Howard Hughes Medial Institute and Department of Genetics
Approved September 28, 1999
Just a moment...
Constructing primate phylogenies from ancient retrovirus sequences
Welkin E. Johnson and John M. Coffin
Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci.
Vol. 96, pp. 10254-10260, August 1999
Just a moment...
Helpful junk
Helpful junk | The Economist
(NOTE: this is a popularized article dealing with a topic covered at a technical level in a recent article in Nature -- where retrotransposons have been implicated in the chaotic over-generation of neurons within the mammalian brain, and a process akin to natural selection eliminates roughly fifty percent of the neurons -- those which apparently do not make the right connections. It is also suggested that the retrotransposons may be responsible for there being a greater variety of cells in the brain than in any other organ.)
Transposable elements as the key to a 21st century view of evolution
http://shapiro.bsd.uchicago.edu/Shapiro_1999_Genetica.pdf
Finally, for readers who are interested in the role of symbiosis in evolution and the history of its treatment in evolutionary thought, a good book for laymen would be "Darwin's Blindspot" by Frank Ryan.
This message has been edited by TimChase, 06-19-2005 01:01 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by EZscience, posted 06-18-2005 9:53 PM EZscience has not replied

TimChase
Inactive Member


Message 218 of 306 (218143)
06-19-2005 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by randman
06-19-2005 5:38 PM


Re: Misinterpretations, etc.
If by single common ancestor, you mean the Last Universal Common Ancestor, then actually this is something which even evolutionists disagree upon. Some evolutionists would argue that while there is common decent, LUCA was itself some sort of community of microbes more or less freely exchanging their genetic material.
You can find out a little bit more about this and the controversies involved at:
Looking for LUCA
http://www-archbac.u-psud.fr/...sTreilles/LesTreilles_e.html
I should note that things have advanced considerably since this was written, but it is a good place to start.
However, somehow, I don't believe that LUCA being some sort of a community of organisms is quite what you meant. If, for example, you believe that "evolution" can only occur within a given population, in essence, that there can be only changes in the relative frequencies of genes within a population, but no real evolution from one species into another, then would you deny that whales evolved from animals which walked on land?
If so, you might want to check out:
Whale Evolution/Cetacean Evolution (Atavistic Hind Limbs on Modern Whales)
Whale Evolution and Atavistic Hind Limbs on Modern Whales
from
Edward T Babinski
Scrivenings
Would you wish to deny that whales are closely related to hipos?
If so, you might wish to check out:
Phylogenetic relationships among cetartiodactyls based on insertions of short and long interersed elements: Hippopotamuses are the closest extant relatives of whales
Masato Nikaido, Alejandro P. Rooney, and Norihiro Okada
Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci.
Vol. 96 pp. 10261-10266, August 1999
Just a moment...
And while we are looking at this, we might also want to turn to the phylogenetic relationships between man and the other primates:
Constructing primate phylogenies from ancient retrovirus sequences
Welkin E. Johnson and John M. Coffin
Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci.
Vol. 96, pp. 10254-10260, August 1999
Just a moment...
There is a great deal of evidence for evolution -- not simply the kind of microevolution which occurs within a given species, but macroevolution, even among broad kinds -- even from single-celled creatures to the multicellular organisms such as yourself. To give one example, there is the social amoeba which comes together temporarily into a single multicellar organism for the purpose of procreation through spores. Currently, the mechanisms used by this odd creature are shedding light even on the human brain itself:
Social Amoeba Sheds Light On Communication In Human Brain
http://www.sciencedaily.com/...ases/2005/05/050517111933.htm
Amoeba studies reveal new insight into human DNA
Page not found – Daily Breeze
SOCIAL STUDIES
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/...
{Shortened display form of URL. - AM}
Would you deny that you and the social amoeba are related? If you are a creationist, I believe you must. But clearly we are learning a great deal from our little relatives -- things which might even shed light upon various mental illnesses.
Of course, I hope that I am not overloading you with too much to digest. Take your time. But please do tell me where -- as a creationist -- you draw the line between organisms which are related and organisms which are not. And if instead you are a proponent of intelligent design, then clearly you must accept a great deal of evolutionary theory. Please tell us what specific points you do not accept and where exactly intelligent design must differ from evolutionary science, rather than simply "ape" it and its discoveries. I am sure that everyone here will appreciate such an enlightening moment and that there will be much less frustration than we have seen for quite a while.
This message has been edited by TimChase, 06-19-2005 11:07 PM
This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 06-20-2005 12:21 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by randman, posted 06-19-2005 5:38 PM randman has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by Jazzns, posted 06-20-2005 10:55 AM TimChase has replied

TimChase
Inactive Member


Message 222 of 306 (218201)
06-20-2005 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 221 by Jazzns
06-20-2005 10:55 AM


Re: Welcome to EvC
Thank you!
Actually I am kind of used to online debates. I have participated a great deal in them in the past, and oftentimes found that even when arguing with people who were little above the level of trolls, it was possible to have highly productive conversations in which I learned a great deal. For personal reasons, I have had to bow out for the past five years, but the issue of Evolution vs. Intelligent Design has brought this old warrior out of mothballs -- I believe it may very well be the most critical political issue facing us today. It is my intention to be a little more precise than I used to be -- it is all too easy to be oblivious to the unintended consequences of one's behavior -- even when you think you are taking the high road.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by Jazzns, posted 06-20-2005 10:55 AM Jazzns has not replied

TimChase
Inactive Member


Message 223 of 306 (218281)
06-21-2005 12:37 AM
Reply to: Message 220 by EZscience
06-20-2005 7:41 AM


"Convergent DNA"
Actually the article which he cites is quite interesting -- at least up to a point. But as is typical among some groups of visitors, he misapplies it.
I will repeat the link here:
Evolution's "Molecular Clock": Not So Dependable After All?
http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=509321
Neighboring locations in the genome appear to have mutations triggered as the result of nearby mutations, and they appear to mutate in the same way. This is essentially what was meant by "convergent" which the article itself does not specifically apply to DNA, but to evolution -- but by "convergent evolution," it is not refering to different species converging (as his use of this discovery would suggest -- particularly since he was attempting to use this discovery to argue against common descent), but to neighboring (or at least relatively close) parts of the genome of the same organism. However, this particular problem is fairly easy to correct for when using a molecular clock approach: one simply checks for mutations in sufficiently distant parts of the genome such that these "coherences" (if I may borrow a term from Quantum Mechanics) do not distort one's calculations.
In all honesty, I would have expected something along these lines. As I understand it, from a mathematical analysis of DNA, it has been concluded that it has a mathematical structure which places it at a mathematical mean between white noise and brownian motion, or to put this in more colloquial terms, it has equal measures of order and disorder. But to employ a more technical term, one may say that it has a spectral density of one (similar to music), whereas white noise has a spectral density of zero, and brownian motion has a spectral density of two, and spectral density may exist in fractional quantities. If there are a good number of purely random mutations, the only way that DNA can preserve its spectral density of one is through the existence of coherences in regions neighboring the random mutations.
There is, however, another problem with the molecular clock which I have run into in an article by Frank Ryan (I will try looking it up): namely, that lateral gene transfer may make events appear further in the past than they actually are. However, this doesn't have the kind of effect that an anti-evolutionist might find particularly appealing -- it would mean that the Last Universal Common Ancestor could be much closer to the present than would otherwise be suggested by a naive application of the molecular clock, meaning that if, for example, according to a naive application of the molecular clock, the LUCA had to be eight billion years in the past (when the earth itself is only 4.5 billion years old), by properly accounting for lateral gene transfer, LUCA may have existed only 3.9 billion years ago, giving evolution more than enough time in which to accomplish what it has.
This message has been edited by TimChase, 06-21-2005 11:51 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by EZscience, posted 06-20-2005 7:41 AM EZscience has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by Wounded King, posted 06-21-2005 4:42 AM TimChase has replied
 Message 226 by EZscience, posted 06-21-2005 11:07 AM TimChase has replied

TimChase
Inactive Member


Message 225 of 306 (218375)
06-21-2005 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 224 by Wounded King
06-21-2005 4:42 AM


Re: "Convergent DNA"
Actually, it does appear to be local, if I am reading the article correctly (although if DNA has a spectral density of one, there should also be some pattern at higher scales). Here is the relevant passage:
If the molecular clock ran smoothly, they would expect to find no similarity at all between the DNA sequences surrounding any pair of unrelated microsatellites. To their surprise, they found the complete reverse, with entirely unrelated microsatellites showing widespread and obvious similarities in their flanking DNA. This meant that mutations near microsatellites were not random, but favored certain letters in certain positions. Just as a new shipwreck will attract its own special community of marine life, so microsatellites appear gradually to change the surrounding DNA towards a common pattern. The result is convergent evolution, an unusual state of affairs where, as time goes by, DNA sequences become more similar, not less.
At the same time, I could see reason for interpreting this passage differently: in particular, there are the words "entirely unrelated microsatellites." We really shouldn't be that suprised that the text is unclear -- it is afterall, semi-popularized -- we should probably go to the original source. I might do that a little later today.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by Wounded King, posted 06-21-2005 4:42 AM Wounded King has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by Wounded King, posted 06-22-2005 6:29 AM TimChase has replied
 Message 233 by randman, posted 06-22-2005 7:06 PM TimChase has not replied

TimChase
Inactive Member


Message 227 of 306 (218389)
06-21-2005 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 224 by Wounded King
06-21-2005 4:42 AM


A Little on DNA's Spectral Density
Anyway, I thought that might be nice to include a few links on spectral density, particularly in relation to DNA. First, a brief intro to spectral density:
Generating noise with different power spectra laws
CAS - Error - 404 Document Not Found
You will notice that it is actually brownian motion which has a spectral density of two, and white noise which has a spectral density of zero. Sorry, I got that wrong in the first post on this topic -- I was going by memory with regard to something I hadn't touched in quite a while -- I will go back and correct.
However, there has been a bit of work on this subject related to DNA. The next link gives a fair number of sources extending from 1992 to 2005:
1/f (One-Over-F) Noise in DNA Sequences
NSLIJ-GENETICS -

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by Wounded King, posted 06-21-2005 4:42 AM Wounded King has not replied

TimChase
Inactive Member


Message 228 of 306 (218394)
06-21-2005 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 226 by EZscience
06-21-2005 11:07 AM


"Convergent DNA"/Retroviruses in Mammalian Evolution
Well, I do think there are other things going on today in the field of evolution which is are of a great deal more interest (at least to me) -- such as the role which retroviruses appear to play in mammalian evolution in general, and primate evolution in particular.
If this sounds like something that might be interest to others (I know you have already seen this), they might want to check out:
Message 193
Message 198
As for you, I understand that your work must keep you quite busy. Any time you are able to spare I will always consider an honor.
Take care, my friend.
This message has been edited by TimChase, 06-21-2005 12:02 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by EZscience, posted 06-21-2005 11:07 AM EZscience has not replied

TimChase
Inactive Member


Message 230 of 306 (218704)
06-22-2005 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by Wounded King
06-22-2005 6:29 AM


Re: "Convergent DNA"
My apologies -- I was kind of tied up on another list where things had gotten a bit heated.
However, I have had the chance to glance over the paper, and it is definitely something I would like to look at more closely later this week.
Thank you for finding the article and making it available!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by Wounded King, posted 06-22-2005 6:29 AM Wounded King has not replied

TimChase
Inactive Member


Message 246 of 306 (218988)
06-23-2005 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by Wounded King
06-23-2005 12:00 PM


Re: Relevance?
But in theory it could produce confounding data.
Quite true -- particularly if you are willing to apply the term "theory" to a highly conjectural game of smoke and mirrors...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Wounded King, posted 06-23-2005 12:00 PM Wounded King has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by randman, posted 06-23-2005 1:25 PM TimChase has replied

TimChase
Inactive Member


Message 252 of 306 (219014)
06-23-2005 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by randman
06-23-2005 1:25 PM


Re: Relevance?
Quite true -- particularly if you are willing to apply the term "theory" to a highly conjectural game of smoke and mirrors...
You mean ToE?
Hardly. The problem you are citing when attempting to apply this across species is similar in many respects to that of denying that one can arrive at phylogeny on the basis of endogenous retroviruses because when two species have endogenous retroviruses in exactly the same position, they could have very well been infected separately, and by some incredible coincidence, the point of insertion may have been the very same in both cases. Granted, there will be hotspots which reduce the the number of probable insertion points, but there are still a great many of insertion points, and trying to argue in the fashion belongs under the heading of sophistry, not science.
As further evidence, I cite:
I think it's hard to deal with your post if you deny convergent DNA in light of the data.
There is no evidence for convergent evolution of coding or pseudo-coding sequence.
The statement you quoted was with regard to coding and pseudo-coding sequences, not the satellite regions where the DNA is highly repetitive -- and which was the subject of the paper which you refered to. I think it is going to be rather difficult and quite possibly unproductive to argue with someone who has such a habit of either misunderstanding or misrepresenting what someone else writes. The individual who you were responding to had done a masterful job of responding to you, and the only way that you could respond back was by twisting what he had said at numerous points. A pattern such as this suggests intent, not accident.
This message has been edited by TimChase, 06-23-2005 02:05 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by randman, posted 06-23-2005 1:25 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by randman, posted 06-23-2005 2:10 PM TimChase has replied

TimChase
Inactive Member


Message 255 of 306 (219026)
06-23-2005 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by randman
06-23-2005 2:10 PM


Re: Relevance?
Wrong. It is fallacious to compare the reality of convergent DNA with endogenous retroviruses, as you have done.
So you are willing to admit that retroviruses are a kind of smoking gun for evolution?
Constructing primate phylogenies from ancient retrovirus sequences
Welkin E. Johnson and John M. Coffin
Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci.
Vol. 96, pp. 10254-10260, August 1999
Just a moment...
Phylogenetic relationships among cetartiodactyls based on insertions of short and long interersed elements: Hippopotamuses are the closest extant relatives of whales
Masato Nikaido, Alejandro P. Rooney, and Norihiro Okada
Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci.
Vol. 96 pp. 10261-10266, August 1999
Just a moment...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by randman, posted 06-23-2005 2:10 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
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