Black Rednecks and White Liberals (by Thomas Sowell)

Anything to support this rather insulting contention with a comparison of the elements of this 'mentality' in the Scottish Highlands at the time? I'm not a highlander myself but while I can see how Scottish and Irish Pioneers may have influenced the culture of the south, I'm certainly not sure I see where the need for a sweet set of chrome rims comes from in the Scottish highlands?TTFN,WK

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Buying rims when you're dirt poor instead of paying your bills and taking care of business is just stupid, to put it as bluntly as I can. Obviously, not everyone that owns rims is poor. Its not about the rims, its about how a mentality that compels people to make a bad choice.

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Well, ok, but what does this have to do with race?I can show you many, many all-white towns in West Virginia where you can see the fancy, new satelite dishes on most of the run down, old double-wide trailers, sitting in knee-high grass, a couple of rusted cars up on blocks in the trash-littered yards. Poor choice, nothing to do with race.I can show you affluent neighborhoods in almost every state where people spend lots of money on lots of expensive crap, yet allow the homeless to die in the street. Poor choice, nothing to do with race.I had a friend from school who became a very devout, conservative Christian in college. Once she married and her religion told her that her responsibility to God was to pump out as many babies as she could, she did. She quit her good-paying job, and her nice, but uneducated husband made a quarter of what she could have. They received public money in the form of WIC benefits. So, the taxpayers were partially footing the bill simply because her religion told her that she must have lots of babies and stay home to raise them, even though SHE was the one with greater earning power. Poor choice, nothing to do with race.

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The mountain people, while still just as dirt poor, considered themselves as different from the other inhabitants--you could call them the upper class of mountain society. Calling them a redneck or hillbilly would be considered an insult, and for good reason. they weren't.

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So, would this be the group the family portrayed in The Waltons was?

if I was familiar with that show, I could answer the question.
once I look it up, I'll edit this post with a response. right now, though, is school.

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if I was familiar with that show, I could answer the question.

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Okay, now I feel old.

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But government...is not simply the way we express ourselves collectively but also often the only way we preserve our freedom from private power and its incursions. -- Bill Moyers (quoting John Schwarz)

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Buying rims when you're dirt poor instead of paying your bills and taking care of business is just stupid, to put it as bluntly as I can.

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Go to any major city in the United States. Done deal. You shouldn't use such a nasty word. But just so you know this argument extends to any one who buys rims they can't really afford. You say that I have class envy, but I'm not the one buying thousand dollar rims to put on my piece of crap, nor am I defending those who do. Consequently, you are. What are you trying to say about yourself? No, no, of course not. I've seen people of every race do that. I blame this counter culture in America for that. They are the purveyors, not some of the young, urban blacks. As far as I see it, they victims of it, along with any one else who buys in to that nonsense. Really, my argument, and so is Sowell's, is not an argument against black people, its an argument against liberal's-- though I should make clear again that its not all blacks and its not all liberals. Never? Well, maybe you live in a cracker jack box. I don't know what to tell you. I'm not knocking Civics or rims. That's all fine in great in proportion to your economic status. If someone can afford rims without neglecting weightier matters, that's fine. But if you're rolling around on a roller skate with some bling-bling, that tells me that someone's priorities are all messed up. If they are willing to neglect the very car that the rims is meant to accentuate, then what else are they neglecting? Crash, I don't give a rat's ass who does it-- white, black, asian, hispanic, whatever. Its just stupid to buy rims which have absolutely no practical purpose whatsoever, when more important things, such as, but not limited to buying a car that is going to run longer than a week. Maybe to a lot of people "Shaniqua" is a goofy name. I can't reiterate enough that its very fickle of people to base important matters off of a name, but it does happen. Cornelius isn't really weird. And to add, names like Cornelius and Jerome were very prevalent names in America during the 1700 and 1800's. Yoshi sounds remarkably Japanese, which is common to that society. Sergio sounds remarkably from Spanish decent. Cornelius sounds either Olde English to me. Yeah, you got me pegged. Remind me again why I wouldn't just tell you if I was? I have no qualms telling you that I disagree with homosexuality. If I was truly racist why wouldn't I just let you know that? Its not like I'm afraid of the p.c. police. It doesn't make any sense to me. Oh my gosh... More distortions.Crashfrog, I never said that black people are lazy and don't know how to spend money. I'm speaking on an INDIVIDUAL level. I never said black people are rednecks. I'm telling you that Sowell says that the preponderance of the ghetto culture derives its modes of speech and mannerisms from antebellum Southerns, which itself was derived from the Scot Highlanders. Lastly, I've never said or made allusions to black people being dumb because some of them give their kids unique names. You've fabricated this. This is your fantasy, not mine. Only if you take me for a spin in your ride after words. What kind of rims do you have? And how have you deduced this? There are different kinds of southerns. The one's in living in Alabama are vastly different from North Carolinians. Actually, those are hillbillies. Stranger things have happened. Besides, the term "redneck" is pretty much ambiguous. However, I think people generally consider themselves a redneck if they are immersed within the southern culture. It once was a derisive term, but some southerns seem to derive a level of pride in referring to themselves as rednecks.

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"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

It used to be but that really started to go away in the early 70's. I mean, if you go to Pensacola or Tallahasee, there still exists a remnant of southern mentality. But in Miami its all but gone for sure. In fact, Miami has its own thing going on. I've never been to anywhere else quite like it. And until recently, I didn't realize that it has its own accent. I obviously didn't hear it growing up, but now that I haven't lived there in quite a few years, when I speak to friends back home, I hear it big time. Spain were the owners. There was a level of neutrality in Florida. I think most Floridians considered themselves southerns, but there was no real strategic value in Florida at that time. Besides, the small Army contingent was too busy fighting with Seminoles at that time to really care. I see it as Virginia, the Carolina's, Georgia, Mississippi, Alabama, Louisiana, Tennessee, Kentucky and Arkansas.Texas, Oklahoma, and Florida kind of have their own thing going on. Yeah, but the hispanic culture is still predominantly contained within South Florida. There are still many places, particularly in Central Florida and the Panhandle that are very typical to southern culture. As far as Texas, its always been considered a frontier state-- or a Western state. I see Rednecks as true Southerners. I see Hillbillies as mountain folk, like West Virginia. But yes, most are descended from Scots-Irish, Welsh and German. The British from that region mainly came from Ulster county. Yes, many of them are attached to the stereotype whether they like it or not. My grandmother on my father's side is a second generation Irish-German. She lives in the Black Mountains of North Carolina. She ended up marrying my grandfather who was an Ecuadorian man who went to the U of North Carolina. During that time, there was little to no exposure to any hispanic people. Bristol? I assume you aren't speaking about the UK...? No, it certainly isn't. In fact, its so far south its more like South America than it is Southern America. Virginia is a strange state, in that, it has both Northern and Southern influences. I lived in Virginia Beach for awhile, which was vastly different from say, Richmond. Well, maybe not "vastly," but I'd say there is a noticeable difference. I'm not knocking anyone here and neither is Sowell. But in the antebellum South, there was no one else but each other to influence. None of this should surprise anyone that the North and South didn't merely dislike each other for political reasons. It went down to the bone and across the ocean, in that, the aristocratic Brits and the Scots/Irish have always been at enmity with one another."Centuries before "black pride" became a fashionable phrase within the contemporary vernacular, there was "cracker pride-- and it was very much the same kind of pride. It was not pride in any particular achievement or set of behavioral standards or moral principles adhered to. It was a touchiness about anything that might be even remotely construed as a personal slight, much less an insult, combined with a willingness to erupt into violence over it. New Englanders were baffled about this kind of pride among crackers. Observing such people, the Yankess could not understand what they had to feel proud about."(Crash elucidates Sowell's point here with his touchiness and his slander about me that seems to me, so out of place and a far departure from what I'm actually saying.) Yes, everyone owned slaves. When I say "rednecks," I am using Sowell's definition of Southerns who were markedly different, culturally, from their Northern counterparts. Sowell offers one oratory by a writer coming from the late 1800's.He writes:"Even when there was no conflict or hostility involved,, Southerns often showed a reckless disregard for human life, including their own. For example, the racing of steamboats that happened to encounter each other on the rivers of the South that often ended with exploding boilers, especially when excited competition led to the tying down of safety valves in order to build up pressure which would generate more speed. An impromptu race between steamboats that encountered each other on the Mississippi illustrates the patter:

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"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

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The reality is that this mentality is borrowed from the white rednecks of the antebellum South, which is borrowed from the Highland's of Scotland.

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We have some really touchy people on EvC. I'm not making fun of you, all Scotsmen, all blacks, all rednecks, all people who have rims, all liberals, etc. I'm simply relaying what Sowell alleges. I just happen to agree because his study is very in depth, not to mention, this goes along with my own observations. Its not like he's flying by the seat of his pants about all of this.Furthermore, I have a great deal of Scots-blood coursing through my own veins. Much of my mother's side of the family happens to come from the South too. Do I make fun of myself about being a Scot or a Redneck anymore than Sowell makes fun of himself for being black? Obviously not. That's because there really is nothing different about people aside from minor variances in skin color, or the consistency of hair, or a predisposition to certain diseases or cancers. There is no difference mentally. The differences do, however, come from variances in mentality-- or sociology-- or culture. And THIS is where true racism comes from. Its a lack of understanding from culture to culture. All of a sudden, you are marked by the way you look, as people will prejudge one another because they presuppose the stereotype.So, when Sowell says that the vast preponderance of American black culture derives some of its ill-behavior from the South, and the South derives some its ill-behavior from Highlanders, he isn't making fun of anyone, nor am I. That doesn't mean that negro's, rednecks, or highlanders are some slack-jawed yokels that extends permeates the entire culture. He is simply making a cultural observation consistent with history. And that observation doesn't mean that we have to live up to these stereotypes.Whether its kept hush out of respect for fellow members of EvC, I'm sure there exists a consensus in Europe about how 'unrefined' the Americans are. Even if they did secretly harbor this animosity, they would make a pretty good point if the Jerry Springer show is the basis for comparison. Does that mean that all Europeans look down on all Americans? No, certainly not. Does that mean that all Americans behave the way its portrayed on the Jerry Springer show? Certainly not. However, stereotypes, whether offensive or not, don't spring out of thin air.Therefore, I think it would behoove everyone not to be offended. I mean, am I really saying anything that so unbelievably egregious? I don't think so. But if so, explain to me why and what I can do to alleviate any misunderstandings.

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"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

Absolutely nothing. Its about culture, not race. What happens is that a culture often comes about because people tend to feel comfortable within their own race. And when segregation is either thrust upon a culture, such as was imposed upon the American negro, a sub-culture can develop.Likewise, sometimes a race will segregate themselves to a degree because its within their comfort zone. And so, the sociology "appears" as though it has do with race when it, in fact, has nothing to do with it.If you think about it, its just a vicious cycle until someone breaks it.Take America for instance. Its unquestionable that latent racist tendencies afflict people of all races. But when they come together out of some commonality, nobody much cares. Sometimes there is conflict between anglo and negro, but things like sports or music take that away. Or look at what happens in the military. We have whites and blacks, for instance, that might not otherwise see much in common with another. But you give them a commonality, like fighting insurgents in Iraq or Afghanistan, and none of that matters. They're all American. Or on a sports team no one cares about that. Or a jazz quartet of mixed race-- nobody cares. They just want to play good music.Its when we segregate ourselves that these animosities begin to fester.We can even look at it in terms of ideologies. Liberals and Conservatives don't much like each other. But a black liberal may find more things in common with a white liberal, than a black conservative. Likewsie, a white conservative may find more in common with a black conservative, than that same white conservative may find with a white liberal.The point is, racism is just one facet of the "Us :vs: Them" mentality that cuts to the core in all humans. I don't think its a virtue that any of us esteems, but it is a reality. Its going to take a very deep understanding to bridge these gaps.

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"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

you still need a refresher course, don't you.Here are some statistics as to who actually owned slaves, and how many they owned. (check for it on the third table in the page)from: Page not foundyour statement: "Yes, everyone owned slaves" is patently false.So who owned the majority of the slaves? The rich people--generally speaking, the "cultured" english (well, descendants). If anything, who would have had the most influence on thier behavior?This is assumming, of course, that the current behavior can be tracked down to influences from the slave era of US history. so I'm not a true southerner? I've lived there for about 14 years--the first 4 years of my life were in alaska, which I remember next to nothing about, and the last half year of my life in Colorado. And I might remind you, I am not a redneck or a hillbilly. Those are two separate classes of people.Are the people of Charleston rednecks? How about Richmond? Is Memphis a town of rednecks? Or what of Nashville? How about New Orleans? If you answer yes to any of these, than you've never met a redneck.Hillbillies are NOT just mountain folk. Remember what I said earlier--being called a redneck or hillbilly could be an insult to the true mountain people. These are the ones who stereotypically wear coon hats and have buckteeth. Rednecks are your NASCAR fans, and the mountain people are your upper class folk, even if they are as poor. There's a movie--about the rediscovery of the old english ballads in the Appalachains--that accurately portrays this last class.I consider Texas to be southern, but as I mentioned, they are odd. The people responsible for taking Texas from Mexico were mostly southerners. And they have a more southern feel than Florida does until you begin to get further west. Florida never had that advantage. After being in spanish hands for 300 years, they have a decidely hispanic/spanish feel, except for the northernmost parts of the state (I don't know if you'd consider Jacksonville north enough, but it has a feel somewhat like Charleston.)

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The plural of "anecdote" is not "data." What's your evidence? Which is as likely to be a white kid living with his parents in Suburbia as anybody else. (Like mc chris says, white kids love hip-hop.) Which pretty much undercuts your entire racial argument. So, then, it really doesn't have anything to do with race, or with ancient Scotsmen pimping their rides up in the Highlands, does it? If you're talking about putting fly rims on a car that simply isn't mechanically sound, well, once again, do you know who's doing that? White people. Christ, don't you ever watch "Pimp My Ride"? Whose rides are they always pimping? White kids'. And who's doing the pimping? Hispanic entrepreneurs, largely. The only black guy involved is the guy who hosts the show, seems like. Yes. Racist people. That's the point. Can you name me one racist who will come out and tell you they're a racist? Everybody, even the racists, knows that being racist is bad. They say all kinds of shit as a smokescreen - "I'm no racist, but..." "Now, some of my best friends are black, but..." "No prejudice on my part, but the data..." - but they're easily picked out by their arguments.If you're making an argument that a certain race experiences disadvantages, not because of discrimination, but because of personal flaws or failings "common" to that race, you're a racist. It's just that simple. If you're excusing second-class status for a certain race for reasons inherent to the biology of race, you're a racist. QED. Which is idiotic, as I've explained, because:1) You've mistakenly conflated antebellum upper-class southerners with lower-class Appalachian mountain people and field laborers (aka "red-necks"); and
2) Your example is fly rims on cars, but neither the antebellum southerners, nor the rednecks, nor the Scots had cars. Even generalizing to a personal failing of putting conspicuous consumption ahead of practical priorities, the rednecks of the south didn't have the money to do that.Hopefully Sowell puts forth a much more intelligent argument than you, because his argument as you've related it is incoherent nonsense. You wanna ride with a guy named "Crash"?Think about it, for a second. No, it's really not. It refers to people who have red necks, in other words, sunburned necks from working out in the sun.The slave owners of the antebellum south didn't work in the sun. They had the slaves do that. And there weren't a lot of poor white people doing that work, either, because they were outcompeted by slaves.The people who owned slaves were more Colonel Sanders than Jeff Foxworthy. Which makes your whole argument completely ridiculous.

I had stated in chat that I wouldn't comment in this thread until I read the book (it arrived today and will read it this weekend), but have to comment because this has been on my mind since it was posted.First, I agree with you (and other posters) that it is not infrequent to see people (of any race) spending money on pop items that are or seem frivolous to the outside. What I think is missed is the context. Keeping up with the Joneses is not just a middle class concept. If a poor black man buys expensive rims, or a poor white man buys a 52" television, or whatever it is not some out of context stupid decision (although from outside I think it is a stupid decision). They are buying status (or what they believe to be status) within their circle of friends. It might be poor decision making (I agree) but it isn't because of race or social class.I grew up in Washington State. And I know many people who could barely (or not) make their rent, bills, etc. but who had bigass trucks they would lose in a few months. But while they had them they were the man. Sure it was stupid. (but ultimately who was the beneficiary? Couldn't be the car dealership...)This transcends economic levels. What is the difference between that and a fly by night actress you see with a $24,000 dress for the Oscars? I several weeks ago listened to a teenager explaining why his Alienware laptop was worth the extra grand because (and he admitted ONLY because) it was Alienware and his friends couldn't afford them.I see a direct relationship to all of the above with chimps who catch a bushbuck and choose to share it with their peers (the norm) or use it to try to elevate their status. Some chimps catch an animal and enjoy the short-lived high status they have among over low ranking chimps. Others use it as a way to elevate their status. Most humans (of any class) use their resources to enjoy short-lived status with other humans, others find ways to elevate their status. But as Jar said, I am a Darwinist

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Doctor Bashir: "Of all the stories you told me, which were true and which weren't?"
Elim Garak: "My dear Doctor, they're all true"
Doctor Bashir: "Even the lies?"
Elim Garak: "Especially the lies"

Wow, you like totally failed to actually mention anything even remotely resembling something in support of your contention. Imagine my surprise.In case you forgot simply re-iterating your assertion isn't generally considered a substantive form of debate. Its all very well saying your just relaying what Sowell says but you haven't even told us what these ill-behaviours that have been passed on from the Highland scots actually were or what the evidence is. Maybe if you actually said what they were I might agree with you. But so far all you do is bang on about things which have absolutely no clear connection to any sort of social behaviour one might expect to trace from the Scottish highlands. I mean cross burning supposedly originated in the Scottish highlands, but you don't see a whole lot of that going on in black neighbourhoods (well not by the black population anyway).TTFN,WK

Actually that only seems to be one of the competing etymologies of the word. One of the alternatives is that it derives from the use of the term for the Scottish presbyterian covenanters.TTFN,WK

I've never heard of this, I guess.