Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 84 (8914 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 06-18-2019 10:52 AM
38 online now:
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: 4petdinos
Post Volume:
Total: 854,005 Year: 9,041/19,786 Month: 1,463/2,119 Week: 223/576 Day: 26/98 Hour: 1/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev1234
5
6789Next
Author Topic:   Black Rednecks and White Liberals (by Thomas Sowell)
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5655
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


Message 61 of 130 (378033)
01-19-2007 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by kuresu
01-18-2007 8:07 PM


Re: A lesson on the south and rednecks
your statement: "Yes, everyone owned slaves" is patently false.

When I say that everyone owned slaves, I'm speaking about the continental United States, I'm speaking about all of human history. There has never been a time where slavery has not existed in some for. Even now slavery still persists.

So who owned the majority of the slaves? The rich people--generally speaking, the "cultured" english (well, descendants). If anything, who would have had the most influence on thier behavior?

I agree that the more money a person has, the more slaves they own. And aside from the occasional Virginian or South Carolinian aristocrat, the majority of wealth was horded in northern states. Having said that, what then does that mean for the southern negro? You think they walked around has freemen because nobody could afford them? No. They are just sold for less.

I'm not a true southerner?

If you're from the South, then you're a southerner.

Are the people of Charleston rednecks? How about Richmond? Is Memphis a town of rednecks? Or what of Nashville? How about New Orleans? If you answer yes to any of these, than you've never met a redneck.

There are thousands of rednecks in any of those given cities, but least of all, Richmond. You say rednecks are NASCAR fans. Not only is that a bad description, but northerners like NASCAR too. What is your basis for assimilation?

Hillbillies are NOT just mountain folk.

I really don't feel like arguing over the etymology of hillbillies and rednecks, so I'll just post the definition and be done with it.

"Often Disparaging and Offensive. a person from a backwoods or other remote area, esp. from the mountains of the southern U.S."

There's a movie--about the rediscovery of the old english ballads in the Appalachains--that accurately portrays this last class.

Cold Mountain?

(I don't know if you'd consider Jacksonville north enough, but it has a feel somewhat like Charleston.)

Yes, and yes.


"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis
This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by kuresu, posted 01-18-2007 8:07 PM kuresu has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by kuresu, posted 01-19-2007 12:38 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5655
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


Message 62 of 130 (378057)
01-19-2007 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by crashfrog
01-18-2007 10:07 PM


Re: Tom Sowell
The plural of "anecdote" is not "data." What's your evidence?

What is your evidence to the contrary? Its a matter of statistical fact that American blacks do more poorly than anyone else in the United States. However, Caribbean or African blacks and other minorities fare much better and are among some of the upper crust as far as it relates to scholarship. So what does that mean? That means that the negro is no different than anyone else, least of all, people of the same race in different parts of the world. That means its a matter of sociology, not biology.

The liberal mantra is that its racism. This is such a specious plea because blacks have the same chance to excel as anyone else, especially in the public school system that go out of their way to try and ensure their success. Its not racism. Its an unwillingness due to a culturally lax attitude that hinders them. You are trying to pass the blame on anyone except the obvious.

Which is as likely to be a white kid living with his parents in Suburbia as anybody else. (Like mc chris says, white kids love hip-hop.) Which pretty much undercuts your entire racial argument.

Its not racial, its cultural. And white kids living in suburbia, ahem, can afford rims.

So, then, it really doesn't have anything to do with race, or with ancient Scotsmen pimping their rides up in the Highlands, does it?

No, which is what I've been saying all along. You just want so badly for me to be a racist so you can justify yourself that you haven't been listening to anything I've been saying. Its cultural. The proof is that when removed from an ill-gotten culture, blacks anywhere else in the world are as successful as anyone else. Its liberal mentality that is shackling the average American negro to plantation mentality and pawning it off as if it were a genuine aspect of African culture. It isn't African by any stretch of the imagination, its a redneck culture.

don't you ever watch "Pimp My Ride"? Whose rides are they always pimping? White kids'. And who's doing the pimping?

I've never seen it so I can't offer my analysis.

quote:
Maybe to a lot of people "Shaniqua" is a goofy name.

Yes. Racist people. That's the point.

And what about Billy Bob? I'll bet if I conducted my own experiment, I could justify the same accusation for Billy Bob. Let me ask you something: is anyone other than white Anglo-Americans capable of spewing racist ideals?

Can you name me one racist who will come out and tell you they're a racist?

Anyone from any white pride or white power movement. They'll tell you.

Everybody, even the racists, knows that being racist is bad. They say all kinds of shit as a smokescreen - "I'm no racist, but..." "Now, some of my best friends are black, but..." "No prejudice on my part, but the data..." - but they're easily picked out by their arguments.

You mean like the Nation of Islam who is notoriously racist? Do you have a problem with Minister Farakahn and his bizarre message? His message sounds just as fanatical and dangerous as any member from any white identity movement. But for some odd reason, those of the liberal persuasion tend to give them a pass simply because they're black. That's not only absurd, but its hypocritical.

1) You've mistakenly conflated antebellum upper-class southerners with lower-class Appalachian mountain people and field laborers (aka "red-necks")

I've done nothing of the such, but even supposing that I did, the point is that the American black culture does not derive from African origins, but rather, from the bad manners of antebellum southern whites.

2) Your example is fly rims on cars, but neither the antebellum southerners, nor the rednecks, nor the Scots had cars. Even generalizing to a personal failing of putting conspicuous consumption ahead of practical priorities, the rednecks of the south didn't have the money to do that.

My gosh, stop focusing on the rims. The rims is just an example of how priorities have become skewed due to a cultural malcontent.

Hopefully Sowell puts forth a much more intelligent argument than you, because his argument as you've related it is incoherent nonsense.

If Sowell can compose are more cogent argument than myself, more power to him. You could always just read his book too since you don't like my message.

You wanna ride with a guy named "Crash"?

Oooh, good point. Nevermind that. ;)

No, it's really not. It refers to people who have red necks, in other words, sunburned necks from working out in the sun.

Yes, that's where the literal name derives, but it speaks about a culture more than it does people who can get sunburned, i.e. fair skinned people.

The slave owners of the antebellum south didn't work in the sun. They had the slaves do that. And there weren't a lot of poor white people doing that work, either, because they were outcompeted by slaves.

Redneck culture is just that-- a culture. The argument is more of North/South and a liberal/conservative argument than it is a white/black argument.


"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis
This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by crashfrog, posted 01-18-2007 10:07 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Dan Carroll, posted 01-19-2007 12:24 PM Hyroglyphx has responded
 Message 65 by crashfrog, posted 01-19-2007 1:21 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded
 Message 67 by tudwell, posted 01-19-2007 7:59 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 63 of 130 (378060)
01-19-2007 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Hyroglyphx
01-19-2007 12:13 PM


Re: Tom Sowell
The liberal mantra is that its racism. This is such a specious plea because blacks have the same chance to excel as anyone else, especially in the public school system that go out of their way to try and ensure their success.

This is true. Inner-city schools are so ludicrously over-funded it makes me sick. I mean honestly, enough with the solid gold overhead projecters! It's unnecessary! And you know the teachers are just going out and blowing their overinflated salaries on all-night coke binges and top-shelf hookers.


"I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut."
-Stephen Colbert
This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-19-2007 12:13 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-19-2007 11:17 PM Dan Carroll has not yet responded

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 678 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 64 of 130 (378064)
01-19-2007 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Hyroglyphx
01-19-2007 11:13 AM


Re: A lesson on the south and rednecks
As to wealth distribution--the Southern aristrocrats--the big plantation owners, had plenty of money. Majority of wealth is not in the north during this era. If anything, its more of a split--remember, the economic power of the US at this time is agriculture--particularly in cotton (which was not the most extensively grown plant, btw). The North needed the South--w/o, no mercantile business. However, I will admit that by the time of the civil war, the south owed the north a lot of money, due to what was an increasingly uprofitable, and unsustainable practrice--slavery.

If you're from the South, then you're a southerner.

ah, but didn't you just recently state that you only considered true southerners rednecks?

You say rednecks are NASCAR fans

I said that was the stereotypical image. That rednecks tend to be your average NASCAR fan, or at least, that's the image.

Cold Mountain is about the Civil War--the movie I'm talking about takes place right around the Great Depression. I just can't remember the name of it.

I personally don't think that the blacks picked up their behavior from any specific segment of the southern population. I think a lot of it has to do with the life they've been forced to live since slavery--when they were dirt poor. Also, blacks and whites really didn't communicate with eath other in the South--you have two whole separate societies. Here's an idea--read I Know why the Caged Bird Sings or Their Eyes Were Watching God for a decent picture of southern black culture during the 20th century. What you will find is not a culture influenced by mountain rednecks, hillbillies, and mountain folk. Rather, it is its own thing--a race of proud, unchanging people stuck in a horrendous economic situation, and dealing with it the best they can given the limitations forced on them. I'm not sure what they're influence is, but if any whites truly did influence them, it would be the aristocrats of the South, who owned the vast majority of them.

The recent "bling-bling" trend doesn't really have a connection with their past cultural heritage. I'd say it's more a rebellion movement against the culture found in the two books I mentioned, sort of like the counter-culture of hippies was a rebellion movement. The recent trends in behavior I think, can also be accredited (i don't think that's the right word) to economic status, esp. as far as crime goes. Poor people tend to commit more crime, no matter the race. It just happens that more poor people are blacks stuck in inner-cities than whites or hispanics. It has squat to do with redneck culture or even slave era aristocrat culture. Sowell, and you, are drawing a false link to explain behavior.

As to the fascination a lot of teens have with this bling-bling culture, I don't understand it myself, and I'm a teen. I always preferred classic rock (once I got into my teen years--before then, I preferred classical, and didn't listen to much of any music). Maybe they see the need to rebel with a new culture. I rebel with an older culture--and it doesn't really work, because it's my parents culture.


Want to help give back to the world community? Did you know that your computer can help? Join the newest TeamEvC Climate Modelling to help improve climate predictions for a better tomorrow.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-19-2007 11:13 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 65 of 130 (378072)
01-19-2007 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Hyroglyphx
01-19-2007 12:13 PM


Re: Tom Sowell
What is your evidence to the contrary?

No no, the onus is on you to support your statements, not me to refute what hasn't even been substantiated.

Its a matter of statistical fact that American blacks do more poorly than anyone else in the United States.

Good, good, now we're starting from a position of reality. Yes, in the US, black people are economically and educationally disadvantaged.

However, Caribbean or African blacks and other minorities fare much better and are among some of the upper crust as far as it relates to scholarship. So what does that mean?

Since we've agreed that black people aren't any dumber, or whatever - there's no inherent physical disparity - the difference, then, must be systemic, endemic obstacles to the success of black people.

This is such a specious plea because blacks have the same chance to excel as anyone else, especially in the public school system that go out of their way to try and ensure their success.

Except that they don't, as I've proven. I'll remind you - black people are half as likely to be called in for job interviews as white people with identical qualifications.

They don't have the same chance, for a variety of reasons: endemic racism in the workplace, limited access to quality education. Plus, your average black person inherits less than 10% of the wealth from their parents that the average white person does.

Some of that is racism. Some of that is the self-perpetuating results of racism.

Its an unwillingness due to a culturally lax attitude that hinders them.

I thought we had agreed that these attitudes were equally prevalent among white people. If it's the attitude that's responsible for disadvantaging blacks, how do you explain that?

The proof is that when removed from an ill-gotten culture, blacks anywhere else in the world are as successful as anyone else.

That's proof of the systemic racism I'm talking about. Yes, culture is responsible - a culture of racism systemic to the US.

And what about Billy Bob?

What about a nickname? I'm sure William Robert doesn't have any trouble with his resumes, NJ.

Anyone from any white pride or white power movement. They'll tell you.

Show me. Because I've looked, and what they say is "we're not racist, we're just better than black people."

Denial of being racist is universal among racists. It's the first thing they do. Hell even the KKK will tell you that they're not racists. "Some of my best friends are black." Coded language for racism. I mean you'll never hear the Minutemen talk about hating "spics", but they're racist, nonetheless. (Why aren't they up protecting the equally-porous Canadian border, otherwise?)

You mean like the Nation of Islam who is notoriously racist?

Sure. Who said black people couldn't be racist? But they'll deny that they're racist, just like the "melanin scientists" will. They'll even deny that they're anti-semetic.

All bigots deny bigotry, NJ. Don't you ever talk to them? Don't you seem them on the news trying to look respectable? Trying to dress up their racism in the most legitimate-sounding terms? How do you think they find new members?

But for some odd reason, those of the liberal persuasion tend to give them a pass simply because they're black.

Who's giving them a pass? The thing is - black people don't generally have the power to be effective racists. Systemic racism against blacks essentially prevents systemic racism by blacks. Compared to the damage caused by systemic racism towards blacks, black racism isn't exactly a priority for social justice. And anyway, when we eliminate the racism against blacks, I imagine that'll go a long way towards eliminating any racism among blacks.

Top to bottom, American society is stacked against black people. Whatever racism exists among black people is simply pushback from that.

I've done nothing of the such, but even supposing that I did, the point is that the American black culture does not derive from African origins, but rather, from the bad manners of antebellum southern whites.

Which is still idiotic. The antebellum South was renown for its good manners, not poor manners.

Yes, that's where the literal name derives, but it speaks about a culture more than it does people who can get sunburned, i.e. fair skinned people.

That's my point - it refers to the coarse mannerisms and poverty conditions of those who typically do field labor.

The people who owned slaves were not laborers of any kind. They were a genteel leisure class renown for good manners, traditional values, quasi-European architecture, cuisine that blended local crops with Old-World techniques, and, of course, crushing disregard for anyone not a member of their restrictive social class.

They weren't rednecks, and any person of that class you referred to as a redneck would be greatly offended. (And they settled such matters at dawn, with pistols.) Did they make ostentatious, conspicuous purchases? Sure, that's a universal feature of having wealth.

But coarse manners and poor financial habits? You've got no idea what you're talking about, which is how I know you've never lived in the South.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-19-2007 12:13 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by docpotato, posted 01-19-2007 1:55 PM crashfrog has not yet responded
 Message 88 by Buzsaw, posted 01-20-2007 7:12 PM crashfrog has responded

  
docpotato
Member (Idle past 3212 days)
Posts: 334
From: Portland, OR
Joined: 07-18-2003


Message 66 of 130 (378080)
01-19-2007 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by crashfrog
01-19-2007 1:21 PM


Re: Tom Sowell
They weren't rednecks, and any person of that class you referred to as a redneck would be greatly offended. (And they settled such matters at dawn, with pistols.)

Don't forget the glove-slapping!

abe: And the demand for satisfaction.

Edited by docpotato, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by crashfrog, posted 01-19-2007 1:21 PM crashfrog has not yet responded

    
tudwell
Member (Idle past 4143 days)
Posts: 172
From: KCMO
Joined: 08-20-2006


Message 67 of 130 (378183)
01-19-2007 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Hyroglyphx
01-19-2007 12:13 PM


Re: Tom Sowell
The liberal mantra is that its racism. This is such a specious plea because blacks have the same chance to excel as anyone else, especially in the public school system that go out of their way to try and ensure their success.

Sorry, but this is just absurd. I go to an inner-city school. Just this year, due to budget cuts, we lost after school tutoring of any kind (luckily, a few of the teachers are nice enough to stay after anyway). No tutoring. Doesn't sound like anyone's going out of their way to ensure our success.

We did, though, and despite the budget cuts which lost us our tutoring, get 31 security cameras installed. My school is a magnet school with a college prep curriculum. There's a fight maybe once a month here. But because 70% of the students are black, we obviously need those new cameras more than after school tutoring or new textbooks or increased salaries for the teachers.

It's absurd, and so is your argument that the public school systems caters to our every need.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-19-2007 12:13 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5655
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


Message 68 of 130 (378241)
01-19-2007 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Lithodid-Man
01-19-2007 4:21 AM


Re: Tom Sowell
I had stated in chat that I wouldn't comment in this thread until I read the book (it arrived today and will read it this weekend), but have to comment because this has been on my mind since it was posted.

Great! I can't wait until you finish it. I'm curious to know the opinion of someone else who has read it.

First, I agree with you (and other posters) that it is not infrequent to see people (of any race) spending money on pop items that are or seem frivolous to the outside. What I think is missed is the context. Keeping up with the Joneses is not just a middle class concept. If a poor black man buys expensive rims, or a poor white man buys a 52" television, or whatever it is not some out of context stupid decision (although from outside I think it is a stupid decision). They are buying status (or what they believe to be status) within their circle of friends. It might be poor decision making (I agree) but it isn't because of race or social class.

As I've said before, race literally has nothing to do with it. I believe its purely sociological in nature, as evidenced by the mass purchases of frivolous items in many parts of the world, but particularly, in American society.

I grew up in Washington State. And I know many people who could barely (or not) make their rent, bills, etc. but who had bigass trucks they would lose in a few months. But while they had them they were the man. Sure it was stupid. (but ultimately who was the beneficiary? Couldn't be the car dealership...)

Well, yes, this is the price of vanity.

This transcends economic levels. What is the difference between that and a fly by night actress you see with a $24,000 dress for the Oscars?

Pure vanity. And the shame of it is that she'll probably only wear it once only to be ridiculed in the tabloids as the "Worst Dressed in 2007." Seems rather pointless.


"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis
This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Lithodid-Man, posted 01-19-2007 4:21 AM Lithodid-Man has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Lithodid-Man, posted 01-20-2007 7:08 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

    
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5655
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


Message 69 of 130 (378245)
01-19-2007 11:17 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Dan Carroll
01-19-2007 12:24 PM


Re: Tom Sowell
quote:
The liberal mantra is that its racism. This is such a specious plea because blacks have the same chance to excel as anyone else, especially in the public school system that go out of their way to try and ensure their success.

This is true. Inner-city schools are so ludicrously over-funded it makes me sick. I mean honestly, enough with the solid gold overhead projecters! It's unnecessary! And you know the teachers are just going out and blowing their overinflated salaries on all-night coke binges and top-shelf hookers.

Its not a matter of how underfunded the American public school system is. I already know that its deplorable. Its a matter of an unwillingness to care enough to make a concerted effort. There are countries far less funded than American public schools, and yet, they know Trigonometry by the age of 13, whereas an incredibly small percentage will never even see Trig in their lives because they can't master basic arithmetic. I indict myself in this, btw. Therefore, its not a matter of what they don't have, but a matter of not using what they do have at their disposal. American society is breeding a very calloused, spoiled society who could give a whit about their success.

Though this pervades a very large percentage of the overall American society, statistics indicate that its particular to American blacks. Why is that? If there is no difference in mental capacity, why does this present itself? Its obviously sociological. And it would take a blind man not to see the connection between attitude and performance.

Outspoken black folk, such as Bill Cosby or Thomas Sowell, have been very vocal about this. And what has happened to them? They've been flamed by the Left as tacit assertions of them being "Uncle Tom's," a truly slanderous terminology for any black (wo)man who refuses to be shackled to the antebellum south mentality that so dominates the ghetto culture today. And it is black folk like Sowell that make the connection of liberals, who want to be intimate friends of the negro, who keeps them in the plantations.

I would agree. I believe fully that the majority of the Left truly does care about the black man, however, it is their approach, no matter how good the intentions, that inevitably holds them back. Why? Because no one holds them accountable? If people like Sowell, or Cosby, or myself seek to TRULY treat them as equals by holding them to the same standards as everyone else, which is equality, we are branded as either racists or Uncle Tom's. And I'm sorry, but that's a steaming load of crap.


"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis
This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Dan Carroll, posted 01-19-2007 12:24 PM Dan Carroll has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by randman, posted 01-19-2007 11:19 PM Hyroglyphx has responded
 Message 71 by kuresu, posted 01-19-2007 11:37 PM Hyroglyphx has responded
 Message 74 by crashfrog, posted 01-19-2007 11:58 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded
 Message 87 by nator, posted 01-20-2007 6:30 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3063 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 70 of 130 (378246)
01-19-2007 11:19 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Hyroglyphx
01-19-2007 11:17 PM


Re: Tom Sowell
awesome post...thanks
This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-19-2007 11:17 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-20-2007 12:08 PM randman has not yet responded

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 678 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 71 of 130 (378250)
01-19-2007 11:37 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Hyroglyphx
01-19-2007 11:17 PM


Sowell's wrong
I'm all for equal treatment. I'm against incorrect prognoses. Sowell is incorrect in his prognosis of what causes blacks to be further behind. defending that wrong position means you to make the same mistake.

I really enjoy Bill Cosby--its true that the people who don't succeed are to lazy or they never had a chance to begin with. There are black people who make it. what's unfair, is that its much more difficult for them then it is for whites or other ethnic groups. in this element there is a racist basis, because if a black man who studied as much as I did, or knew as much, or was equally qualified, and I made it, but he didn't, why is that? race, and racism.

let me remind you again--rednecks ain't responsible for blacks failure in this society. it is their racism, and other's racism, that is responsible. no matter how much you think its not here, racism is an isidious, subtle, creeping monster that inhabits every person on this earth. some are just more open about it then others.


Want to help give back to the world community? Did you know that your computer can help? Join the newest TeamEvC Climate Modelling to help improve climate predictions for a better tomorrow.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-19-2007 11:17 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by randman, posted 01-19-2007 11:45 PM kuresu has responded
 Message 80 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-20-2007 12:23 PM kuresu has not yet responded

    
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3063 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 72 of 130 (378251)
01-19-2007 11:45 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by kuresu
01-19-2007 11:37 PM


Re: Sowell's wrong
Racism is real, but the biggest problems in the black community are not dealing with racism from white folks, but they are problems such as black on black crime, elevation of negative cultural and social values, addictions, adultery and lack of committment to one's spouse or loved ones, immorality and violence in general, advocating that becoming educated is a white thing, etc, etc,....These are moral, social and cultural problems that no one but black Americans themselves can solve.

There have been lots of oppressed groups that rose above. It can be done, but it can't be done from the outside.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by kuresu, posted 01-19-2007 11:37 PM kuresu has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by kuresu, posted 01-19-2007 11:52 PM randman has not yet responded
 Message 75 by crashfrog, posted 01-20-2007 12:08 AM randman has responded
 Message 81 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-20-2007 12:26 PM randman has not yet responded

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 678 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 73 of 130 (378253)
01-19-2007 11:52 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by randman
01-19-2007 11:45 PM


Re: Sowell's wrong
not only from the outside, at any rate. It wouldn't hurt if we actually treated them fairly, like we're supposed to (you know, part of being a good human, good american, (and for those who are) being a good christian).


Want to help give back to the world community? Did you know that your computer can help? Join the newest TeamEvC Climate Modelling to help improve climate predictions for a better tomorrow.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by randman, posted 01-19-2007 11:45 PM randman has not yet responded

    
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 74 of 130 (378256)
01-19-2007 11:58 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Hyroglyphx
01-19-2007 11:17 PM


Re: Tom Sowell
Though this pervades a very large percentage of the overall American society, statistics indicate that its particular to American blacks. Why is that? If there is no difference in mental capacity, why does this present itself? Its obviously sociological.

Er, it can't be sociological. You just said it pervades overal society.

Look, your argument doesn't make a lick of sense. You're saying that there's this attitude that pervades society and doesn't have anything to do with race - and that's why black people are disadvantaged.

What the fuck? If it doesn't have anything to do with race, then it can't be an explanation. What's endemic to American sociology is racism - people don't think a black person is as good as a white person.

It really is just that simple, NJ. It's the simplest explanation in the world, but you're too busy blaming the victims to see the real problem. And quite frankly, we're all getting a little tired of your racism.

Why? Because no one holds them accountable?

Accountable for what? The systemic racism that they're the victims of?

Yeah, accountable. And you know what? Somebody should start holding all those robbery victims accountable. And murder victims too. (Of course, rape victims have been held to your perverted "accountability" for pretty much all of history.)

Look, NJ, it's not a mystery what's going on. You're wondering why black people get the shaft in America, and rather than face your uncomfortable responsibility for your part in it, you prefer to blame the victim. You sleep a lot better thinking that black people are poor because they deserve to be poor; not because (for instance) employers are half as likely to call a black person back for an interview compared to a white person with the same qualifications.

Blaming the victim is common, and it's no surprise to see you suffering from it. That doesn't make it any less dispicable or racist.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-19-2007 11:17 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 75 of 130 (378264)
01-20-2007 12:08 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by randman
01-19-2007 11:45 PM


Re: Sowell's wrong
Randman, could you comment on the research I linked to upthread? The fact that a black person is less than half as likely to be called back for an interview as a white person with identical qualifications would seem to me to be a very significant barrier to success, indeed. And, no, that's not a problem "black people themselves have to solve." Systemic racism is a problem we all need to have a hand in dealing with (although blaming the victim, again, makes it pretty easy to abdicate one's responsibility thereof.)

I'm not familiar with any research that suggests adultery is any more prevalent among black people than among anyone else, so could you provide some kind of evidentiary support for that?

As for the rest - black on black violent crime, drug use, etc - these are sociological conditions well-known to stem from conditions of crushing poverty. When the systemic racism that economically disadvantages black people is removed, these problems will abate as a function of the increasing wealth of black people. You're simply mistaking the symptoms for the disease.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by randman, posted 01-19-2007 11:45 PM randman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by randman, posted 01-20-2007 1:53 AM crashfrog has responded

  
Prev1234
5
6789Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019