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Author Topic:   Black Rednecks and White Liberals (by Thomas Sowell)
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 1130 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 91 of 130 (378485)
01-20-2007 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Buzsaw
01-20-2007 7:12 PM


Re: Maligning NJ As A Racist
NJ painted himself as racist--Crash just pulled the curtain from the canvas.

If racism were a crime, and Crash the prosecutor, NJ would do time.


Drinking when we are not thirsty and making love at any time, madam, is all that distinguishes us from the other animals.

-Pierre De Beaumarchais (1732–1799)

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Buzsaw, posted 01-20-2007 7:12 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

    
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3061 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 92 of 130 (378492)
01-20-2007 8:55 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by crashfrog
01-20-2007 10:59 AM


Re: Sowell's wrong
Adultery is poor choice of words. What I am getting at is the cultural sensualization of black American culture where women are overly objectified and there is an unusually high number of illegitimate children, or children growing up without fathers.

It's a problem for everyone else, but it is particularly a problem in black America, and it is not the result of racism.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by crashfrog, posted 01-20-2007 10:59 AM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by crashfrog, posted 01-20-2007 8:58 PM randman has not yet responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 93 of 130 (378493)
01-20-2007 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by randman
01-20-2007 8:55 PM


Re: Sowell's wrong
It's a problem for everyone else, but it is particularly a problem in black America, and it is not the result of racism.

To the extent that it is a particular problem for black people (a contention that, after several requests, you have still not provided any evidence for, thus confirming my earlier characterization of your posting habits), it is the result of poverty, which is the result of racism, as I've proven. (See the evidence I've referred to you at least three times now.)


This message is a reply to:
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tudwell
Member (Idle past 4141 days)
Posts: 172
From: KCMO
Joined: 08-20-2006


Message 94 of 130 (378535)
01-21-2007 2:11 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by Buzsaw
01-20-2007 7:12 PM


Re: Maligning NJ As A Racist
NJ's message which you responded to correctly stated that in America blacks have the same educational advantages as whites and in fact more so since schools generally go out of their way to see to it that they succeed

NJ was wrong and you are too. See my Message 67. My district, the Kansas City Missouri School District, no longer pays teachers to stay after school, unless they have the ridiculous amount of twenty students staying with them. That's a whole class! It's essentially removing after school tutoring, especially for my school, which is a measly 800 students. Perhaps it's different where you live (though I know it's not), but in KC, no one's going out of their way to ensure anyone's success, certainly not black people's.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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kuresu
Member (Idle past 675 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 95 of 130 (378539)
01-21-2007 2:17 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by tudwell
01-21-2007 2:11 AM


Re: Maligning NJ As A Racist
truly a shame. my school (in Bristol, VA, a small city (under 20,000)) still has tutoring. It's not the teachers that do it, though. however, most are willing to work with you to help you succeed. Or school system's budget? about 6 million. We have one high school (9-12, 650ish students), a middle school, and four or five elementary schools.

maybe the difference between small and big cities?


Want to help give back to the world community? Did you know that your computer can help? Join the newest TeamEvC Climate Modelling to help improve climate predictions for a better tomorrow.
This message is a reply to:
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AdminWounded
Inactive Member


Message 96 of 130 (378562)
01-21-2007 5:57 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by crashfrog
01-20-2007 5:32 PM


Strong language
Hi Crash,

I realise this is a very emotive subject and you feel that NJ's stance is not only largely inconsistent with the facts but actually directly contradictory of them. Be that as it may while I myself enjoy the well deployed use of four letter anglo-saxon word and derivatives of the same I would ask that you try and moderate your language.

One of the benefits of a message board as a medium for debate is that everyone has time toreflect on what they say before they say it, so there is no need to swear other than for effect. I think that you have made the strength of your feeling quite clear without swearing. I certainly don't see the benefit of repeatedly using the same sort of strong language in subsequent posts.

This is just a request not any sort of directive, I just think that since we know that we can't control who reads these pages it behoves us to keep the tone at a level so as not to alienate interested lurkers.

TTFN,

AW


This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by crashfrog, posted 01-20-2007 5:32 PM crashfrog has not yet responded

  
Lithodid-Man
Member (Idle past 1093 days)
Posts: 504
From: Juneau, Alaska, USA
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 97 of 130 (378568)
01-21-2007 6:25 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Hyroglyphx
01-20-2007 1:00 PM


Re: Tom Sowell
NJ,

I did not think that Sowell was totally off-base in all of his arguments. He is a very good writer and made points that I hope black Americans take to heart. But what he failed to do is support his contention that poor Scottish culture led to modern poor black ghetto culture.

The operative word was 'poor'. Disadvantaged people worldwide tend to behave in very predictable ways. Last year when we were in Thailand I heard from educated Thais that the people from the Northern provinces were so lazy that it was better to hire workers from Myanmar or Malaysia. Northern Thais were described as lazy, prone to drink, never make work schedules, etc. Northern Thai women were 'loose, prone to whoredom' etc. Sound familiar?

Sowell never sucessfully ties together his points yet assumes they are tied. And even if true, if he is 100% right, his point is still mute. So what if modern black ghetto culture is derived from Scottish Highlanders. Does that justify the disparity in education? Of call backs for jobs? Please try to see this point.

If anything else please acknowledge your bigotry. Like twelve step it is the first step. I am a bigot, I try not to be. When I meet people of different race, religions, or other ethnicities I often form immediate opinions that I strive to eliminate (remember Hans and Frans from SNL? Pummela Pummela Pummela). I do this because I know it is wrong to be a bigot. Because of this I question all of my assumptions and reconsider all of my thoughts before drawing conclusions.


Doctor Bashir: "Of all the stories you told me, which were true and which weren't?"
Elim Garak: "My dear Doctor, they're all true"
Doctor Bashir: "Even the lies?"
Elim Garak: "Especially the lies"
This message is a reply to:
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Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5655
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


Message 98 of 130 (378634)
01-21-2007 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by crashfrog
01-20-2007 5:32 PM


Re: Sowell's wrong
What sense does it make to have "Fox News" now that Republicans lost Congress?

By the same premise, why didn't ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, PBS, or any other major media outlet that appeals to a Leftist view call it quits after having lost both elections? Obviously, that's silly. Secondly, and more importantly, FOX news isn't named "Conservative television," one, because it isn't geared towards that demographic, and secondly, it isn't exclusive to anyone.

I guess maybe you think that the Family Guy and American Dad are really just NeoCon concoctions with how it constantly makes fun of Conservatism.

It's not like the government created BET, NJ, or Martin Luther King, Jr. The market supports BET (on cable, BTW) because it offers programming that appeals to its demographic in a way that meanstream, white-oriented programming doesn't.

First of all, I don't know what "white-oriented" television consists of. What exactly is that? Also, I realize that BET is geared towards a specific demographic. And that's fine. I have no problem with that. The problem that I have is that the name is rather exclusive. But more importantly is the blatant hypocrisy. Again, if anyone had White TV they'd be shut down in an instant. Why refer to a race at all?

You mean AZN? I watch that all the time.

I've never heard of it so I can't comment on it. What exactly is it?

quote:
But the same exact premise, "White Entertainment Television" would be shut down the nanosecond it came out.

Yes. Because it's racist

What are you talking about? How is that racist, but BET isn't? Please explain that, because thus far, you're just swishing the mouthwash to the other side of the cheek.

If you want to watch TV for whites, turn to any other channel. Fox News, especially.

How, pray tell, is FOX news especially for whites? That's the most absurd thing I've ever heard.

Yeah, the privileged race. You're privileged, for instance, by being part of what is considered the "normal" race. You're privileged by being twice as likely as an identically-qualified black guy to be called back for a job interview, for instance.

Crash, I am not privileged in any sense of the word. You are flying by the seat of your pants. I suppose this normal race fares well in Africa, the Mid East, and Asia too...?

How can it be nonsense? You've already admitted that it's true.

What did I admit was true?

Look, you've already said that black people face obstacles that others don't.

No I didn't. I said that I don't doubt that some of what you've said has happened. It would be foolish to think that it doesn't happen. You, however, are painting this picture of a massive conspiracy, apparently only directed towards blacks. You know, if I applied at a black owned company and my qualifications far exceeded their fellow African-Americans but they chose the other guy or gal over me simply because they'd feel more comfortable amongst their own, would that be racism?

You gave a lot of examples of how black people don't seem to do as well in America as they should.

Right, but you can't blame everyone but themselves in sweeping indictments Crash. Are you seriously going to tell me that none of it could be their own fault? I mean, this is on a case by case basis. Certainly not all employers are racist and certainly not all blacks are held down by the ghetto mentality. That's clearly evidenced by the fact that many blacks do just fine and work at very prestigious places of work in every sector of society. But you are making so that no matter any white man does, he can do no right, but every black man can do no wrong. Balance it out with reality. Of course racism is alive and well, but that doesn't mean that it extends to every case.

Well, look at the flip side of that. What does that say about you? That you don't face the same obstacles. That American society doesn't hold you back. What else should we call that besides privilege?

If I'm held back its for a good reason. If I excel its because I made it happen. That's not a privilege or a right. You have to earn that.

You can walk into any department store in the nation and find the stuff you need to take care of your hair. That's a privilege.

Huh? You lost me there. Take care of my hair?

quote:
Every other channel is devoted to only one race?

Yeah. The white race.

Wow... Crash, please come back to earth now.

Look. Turn on the TV and watch the programs. If you see a program that, to you, doesn't seem to have anything to do with race - that's a program made especially for white people. That's why you don't see the racial component - it's your race. It's transparent to you. Why wouldn't it be?

Give me an example of a transparently "white" show-- whatever the hell that is.

Think about it for a minute. List to yourself the stereotypes about white people. Now, think about where you first heard those, what the source of those stereotypes is. Minority comedians, almost certainly. Don't you find it odd that you can't think of a single white stereotype that a minority didn't come up with? Isn't it odd that all the stuff they say about white people - have to get drunk to dance well, get sleepy from turkey and wine, talk like they're from the suburbs - seem totally normal to you?

Crash, I'm beginning to think that you live a very sheltered life where everyone is like a cookie cutter person. First of all, not everyone needs alcohol to dance well any more than white people speak like Ned Flanders. But I do happen to find it humorous.

You're white. So, naturally, white-oriented stuff seems normal or raceless to you. That's how you know it's white-oriented!

I'm a mutt, for starters, secondly, are you white? If so, you seem to have a great understanding of how it all works.

And where and what, ahem, do non-blacks celebrate every month over racial identity?

Everywhere. Every history book has the history of white people. Every channel talks about the accomplishments of white people. Every magazine that isn't explicitly minority-oriented is about white people.

How many white people are on the cover of Time every month? How many minorities?

I'll let Oprah, Bill Cosby, 50 Cent, Michael Jordan, Evander Holyfield, Condoleeza Rice, and the like know how bad they have it.

Actually, every one of those people did have it bad, thanks to racism. That they overcame it to some degree is irrelevant. And, look at your examples. Bill Gates makes a lot more money than Opera. Condi still reports to George Bush.

So what? That's called Capitalism. Are you going to fault Bill Gates for being wealthier than Oprah? Secondly, Oprah is wealthier than 97% of not only the entire white, but the world population as well. Secondly, Barack Obama is probably going to be the next president of the United States. And how he "overcame" the gloomy dark cloud of white oppression is by not being a jackass. Seems to work pretty well.

I mean it's not even clear to me what you think you've proven with these examples.

quote:
You know, its been my experience that many people get a job simply because their black, or any other minority.

See, this is racism.

Yeah, no kidding. That's why I don't like Affirmative Action. Its government sanctioned racism.

You're a racist.

No, I'm not. But you are.

Your assumption is - whenever a minority gets a job over a white, it's "affirmative action", because there's no way a shiftless nigger could be more qualified than a white person.

No, I don't think that whenever a minority gets a job over a white that its affirmative action. I only think its affirmative action, when its affirmative action. Make sense?

But, of course, you get CBS, ABC, NBC, and all the rest of the broadcast channels - which are white-oriented programming.

Seriously, what is "white-oriented" television? That's a bunch of malarky.

(And, again, the way that you can detect this is for you, a white guy, to sit down and watch those channels and, if you can't detect a racial orientation to the programming - it's white-oriented, obviously.)

What? Crash, you're such a bigot and you don't even know it. Are you telling me that science-based programming is "white" in nature? Are you telling me that true-crime programs are "white" oriented? Are you telling me that the news is "white" oriented? Are you telling me that only Hip Hop and bling-bling qualifies as "black" in orientation?

I've offered no "unwaivering support" for anybody at all simply because of their race.

You have! You have made so that no matter what happens, whitey is always bad. You have made it so that in the event one black man is less qualified than someone else, racism just has to be the culprit. You've repeated this mantra over and over again.

But any idiot can take a look at a situation where employers choose white people over equally-qualified black ones and see - that's racist.

But only an agenda driven lemming would honestly believe that every single case is due to racism.

And the people who stand up for that racism system - like you - are racists.

Crash, I am offering EQUALITY and nothing more. You are trying to turn the tables and make blacks superior to whites. That's very evident at this point in our discussion. How is ACTUAL equality, something envisioned by the likes of Martin Luther King, worse than Malcolm X's vision of making blacks superior to every one else?

And you're sitting there blaming the victim because it's easier than discharging your responsibility

There is no victim, Crash, only the one's you've imagined in your mind. Never has racism been less of a problem in the United States than it is now. Never. The reality is that racism will always rear its ugly head no matter the civilization. However, steps have been taken to ameliorate it, and as a society were as definitely headed in the right direction. You are turning this in to an Us versus Them scenario that only adds an inflammatory element to the whole racial issue. I am in full support of equality. I question if you are.


"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis
This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by crashfrog, posted 01-20-2007 5:32 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 99 of 130 (378648)
01-21-2007 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Hyroglyphx
01-21-2007 12:57 PM


Re: Sowell's wrong
NJ writes:

How, pray tell, is FOX news especially for whites? That's the most absurd thing I've ever heard.

Crash must be a regular fan/viewer of Fox. ;) Otherwise how could he claim to have an authoritative opinion? I'm a Fox regular and I see plenty of both liberal blacks & whites, including the outer fringe kooky ones being interviewed right along with conservative folks.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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AdminBuzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 100 of 130 (378660)
01-21-2007 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Hyroglyphx
01-17-2007 2:18 PM


Re: Racist/Lies
Hi NJ. Though I'm sure it's not pleasant being maligned as a racist and though I see your defense of this charge as substantial, to be evenhanded in moderating, since I've admonished others for charging the opponent of lying, I suggest you take the advice of myself and AdmnModulous to use a less inflamitory choice of words/phrases than lying in voicing the opinion that one is perpetrating a falicy or is mistaken. Thanks.

www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=16&t=156&m=31#38 -->www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=16&t=156&m=31#38">http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=16&t=156&m=31#38

My apologies that this is a belated action, being a few days have passed since the message was posted.


A creationist Jesus knowing God loving Biblical fundie moderator for EvC.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-17-2007 2:18 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 101 of 130 (378663)
01-21-2007 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Hyroglyphx
01-21-2007 12:57 PM


Re: Sowell's wrong
Secondly, and more importantly, FOX news isn't named "Conservative television," one, because it isn't geared towards that demographic, and secondly, it isn't exclusive to anyone.

What, are you kidding? Do you not watch the channel, or what?

First of all, I don't know what "white-oriented" television consists of. What exactly is that?

Everything you think is just "normal" tv. Sitcoms about white people who live in the suburbs. Entertainment news about white celebrities. Country and pop music videos. Travel shows about America and Europe. Cooking shows about traditionally white cuisine.

Everything that doesn't seem "racial" to you. You don't detect the racial orientation because it's your race.

What exactly is it?

AZN? You can't figure out what "Ahs-zhi-en" has on its network? Soap operas from China. Japanese-produced period dramas. Korean-produced animation. Cooking shows about asian cuisine. Travel shows about Thailand.

You know, stuff that asian people might want to watch because it's relevant to their culture - in the way that every other channel shows programming relevant to white people's culture.

What are you talking about? How is that racist, but BET isn't?

Because white people have white-oriented programming on all channels. Incresing white privilege, when whites are already privileged, is racist.

How, pray tell, is FOX news especially for whites? That's the most absurd thing I've ever heard.

Then refute it. How much black-oriented programming does Fox News run?

Is Bill O'Reilly a black person? Are Sean Hannity and Alan Colmes black or white? How about

Show me the programming on Fox News that's black or minority-oriented. Otherwise your assertions to the contrary have no support.

Crash, I am not privileged in any sense of the word.

I've explained how you are. Until you're prepared to deal with message 86, your assertions to the contrary are irrelevant, unsubtantiated arguments that are contrary to the forum guidelines.

I suppose this normal race fares well in Africa, the Mid East, and Asia too...?

No, obviously not, but that's irrelevant - you live in Oregon. You don't live where whites are the minorities, you live where they're privleged by society - thus, you are privileged.

I mean you really need to be thinking through your arguments, NJ.

What did I admit was true?

How soon they forget. Did you, or did you not write these words:

quote:
Its a matter of statistical fact that American blacks do more poorly than anyone else in the United States. However, Caribbean or African blacks and other minorities fare much better and are among some of the upper crust as far as it relates to scholarship.

Those are your words, NJ, or, at the very least, you offered them as your words. (That you can't now recall them casts some doubt on the authenticity of your authorship.) "Blacks do more poorly than anyone else." Conversly, it's known that whites do better as a whole than anybody else.

That's the privilege of whites - doing better, as a whole, than anybody else. It's the flip side of blacks doing worse than anybody else. If one side of the teeter-totter is down, the other side is up. In this case, it's a teeter-totter with a lot of sides, but white people are still pretty much up - that's the privilege.

You, however, are painting this picture of a massive conspiracy, apparently only directed towards blacks.

Mostly blacks, but hispanics and asians too. Everybody who isn't white, essentially.

It's not a conspiracy. It's individual people in power making decisions from stereotypes about race. "I'm not going to call La Fawndah back because black people don't work as hard as white people." There's no need for a conspiracy to disenfranchise minorities - a sufficient number of the people in power are doing it anyway, because they all share identical prejudices against minorities.

You know, if I applied at a black owned company and my qualifications far exceeded their fellow African-Americans but they chose the other guy or gal over me simply because they'd feel more comfortable amongst their own, would that be racism?

That you even bring it up is racist. What, you're so smart that it's not possible a black person could be more qualified than you?

Of course not. How could a "shiftless nigger" know more about your job than you?

Are you seriously going to tell me that none of it could be their own fault? I mean, this is on a case by case basis.

Individual bad choices wouldn't explain it. That's random noise in the statistics.

Unless your contention is that a black person is more likely to make "bad choices" than a white person. That contention, of course, would be racist - as well as disproven by the evidence you yourself have referred to.

Bad choices that have nothing to do with race might explain why an individual fails to succeed in our society. But bad choices don't explain why minorities as a whole fail to succeed in our society, unless, again, your contention is the racist argument that white people just make better choices in general, because they're smarter or something.

But you are making so that no matter any white man does, he can do no right, but every black man can do no wrong.

No, I'm not, and this is nothing more than a smokescreen assertion designed to direct attention away from your failing, racist arguments and portray me as a bigot. Of course, it's completely transparent.

Huh? You lost me there. Take care of my hair?

You don't understand that black people need special hair-care products to take care of their hair? That hair stylists have to be specially trained to style black people's hair, and that a lot of them don't have sufficient practice or training to do it successfully?

No, of course you don't - you're white, so naturally, stores stock all the hair products you need, and barbers and stylists have no problem cutting and styling your hair. You've never even considered the possibility that you could go into a barber or a hair stylist and the person literally wouldn't know how to cut or style your hair.

That's privilege. It's a privilege black people don't have.

Wow... Crash, please come back to earth now.

You don't think being white is a race? Jesus, NJ, look at a census form sometime. What do you think the listing of "caucasian" means? "White."

How is it that you think you can talk about race when you don't even know what race you are?

Crash, I'm beginning to think that you live a very sheltered life where everyone is like a cookie cutter person.

No, of course that's not true. I was talking about stereotypes, not saying that the stereotypes are true. Try to pay attention, ok?

Surely you're aware that there are stereotypes about white people, right? How can you even talk about race if you're so ignorant about it?

Why do you think all the stereotypes are made up by minorities? Why do you think it is that you, a white person, can't come up with a single stereotype about being white on your own?

I'm a mutt, for starters, secondly, are you white?

Yes, I am.

So what? That's called Capitalism.

No, that's called "racism." The fact (that you accepted) that black people have the least success, as a group, in our society - and whites have the most - is racism. What else would it be?

I only think its affirmative action, when its affirmative action. Make sense?

How would you know? What, I'm supposed to believe that employers are calling you back and telling you that they're hiring a black guy, and then they're telling you how much less qualified he is?

Bullshit, NJ. Employers rarely call people they aren't hiring, and they certainly wouldn't open themselves to a lawsuit by admitting to any kind of racial discrimination, especially after a number of successful such lawsuits in the '80's. These are myths propagated by racists. The vast majority of businesses aren't under any kind of racial quota or affirmative action in the first place. Affirmative Action, for all it's vaunted racism, is a boogeyman. It's hardly ever employed in the US.

Are you telling me that true-crime programs are "white" oriented?

Yes, I'm telling you that shows like CSI: Miami, with a nearly all-white cast set in one of the most minority-populated cities in the US, is white-oriented. I'm telling you that your average national news program, with a nearly all-white lineup of anchors, is white-oriented.

And the proof of this is that you see no racial orientation to these shows. Obviously you don't - you're white! It's your race.

You have made so that no matter what happens, whitey is always bad.

Again, these are falsehoods, and there's absolutely no statement of mine you can quote to substantiate them (which is why you didn't even try.)

But only an agenda driven lemming would honestly believe that every single case is due to racism.

Who's asserted that? You're grappling with strawmen. (Probably black ones.)

How is ACTUAL equality, something envisioned by the likes of Martin Luther King, worse than Malcolm X's vision of making blacks superior to every one else?

Who said that it was? I did, as you'll recall, assert that I found Malcom X as racist and anti-semetic as anybody else.

You're grappling with strawmen. When are you going to be able to address my arguments?

I am in full support of equality.

At the same time that you defend white privilege and racism? I doubt you even know the meaning of the word "equality", NJ.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-21-2007 12:57 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 102 of 130 (378667)
01-21-2007 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Buzsaw
01-21-2007 1:35 PM


Re: Sowell's wrong
Crash must be a regular fan/viewer of Fox.

Yeah, I watch Fox. Why wouldn't I? Unlike conservatives I have no trouble exposing myself to views that aren't exactly like mine.

I bet neither one of you listen to NPR on a regular basis, though. Or watch much Keith Olbermann? No? Color me not surprised.

I'm a Fox regular and I see plenty of both liberal blacks & whites, including the outer fringe kooky ones being interviewed right along with conservative folks.

But that's the point. The only minority faces on Fox News are guests brought in as stand-ins for their entire race. But nobody expects Sean Hannity to be speaking for all white people, do they? Hannity has the privilege of his remarks not reflecting on his race. Fox News' black guests aren't afforded the same privilege.

Thanks, Buz, for another great example of white privilege.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Buzsaw, posted 01-21-2007 1:35 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5655
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


Message 103 of 130 (378738)
01-21-2007 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by crashfrog
01-20-2007 6:05 PM


Re: Thinking about privilege
It's not surprising to me to see NJ lampoon the idea of "white privilege" since he's pretty clearly racist

Yep... Which is why I highly recommended Sowell, a black man, to read. Which is why is also why Lith and I are sharing the Hip Hop bands we like. Which is why I speak so highly of Dr. King and his message of true equality. You've got me pegged Crash.

Imagine that we're talking about the society of, say, 19th-century Georgia, where blacks are slaves. Now, if you're a black man, you can't:

1) Vote
2) Own anything
3) Marry a white person
4) Decide where you want to work

etc. Everybody understands what it means to be a slave.

But flip it. As a white person, you can:

1) Vote
2) Own things
3) Marry a white person
4) Make decisions about your employment

and so on. You have privileges

Then you must live under a rock because slavery is long since dead and black people are afforded the exact same rights as every one else. In fact, it was a white man, a Republican white man, no less, that freed the slaves to begin with. So, where is this white privilege?

To you, these seem like things you're just "supposed" to have. Even if you support slavery, these are just part of your white "birthright." These are your "human rights."

But they have the same rights. Saying they don't speaks disparagingly about the movement to emancipate the slaves. Since slavery was dead, equality was still but a dream for over a decade after the fact, where black men and women suffered many of the pitfalls you've been mentioning. But those days are all but gone so that we are on an equal playing field-- and as I've shared, the fear of being branded a racist is so ripe in the minds of progressive whites, such as yourself, that you inadvertently esteem them even higher simply because they are black instead of just treating every one the same. And its in that way you perpetuate racism and undermine true equality.

White privilege is very real.

There are pockets of backwood America that such things still exist, where whites are privy but blacks aren't. Those backwoods communities are now so antiquated, however, that they will surely disappear altogether in the near future. This is why crazy White Identity groups live deep in Montana or Idaho where they can live out their separatist fantasies. Fine by me. Stay out of mainstream America where the poison of their message of sending America back into the social dark ages is mitigated.

Having said that, the majority of America, by far, has never been further away from those backward ideals than it is right now. Instead of celebrating the advances we've made, you want invent more strife and reignite the flames that have died down. The more that you focus on the differences, instead of the similarities we all share, the more you actually exacerbate the enmity that is dying at a rapid pace.

When a white person is twice as likely to be called in for interviews as an identically-qualified black person, that's a privilege.

My friend's name is Chris Woody, not exactly a name that invokes his blackness. Nonetheless, he's a black man. So, naturally, even though he may or may not get more call backs because of his name, they are obviously going to know he's a black man when he shows up for the interview. He's a damn good carpenter. And because of his QUALIFICATIONS, he has more job offers than he knows what to do with. In fact, he's now the superintendent of the largest architectural firm in the NorthWest, making well over 30 dollars an hour directing every one under him-- white, black, hispanic, or otherwise, in his subdivision.

And to add, Portland has the lowest percentage of black residents than any other major US city, according to a recent census. And yet, every where I go, no matter the type of business, there are multiple black people working in various capacities. I mean, really Crash, if there was such an overt or even covert problem with wide scale racism, we should see this reflected in society with unparalleled numbers. I just don't see that, and I've lived in Portland, Chicago, Miami, San Diego, San Antonio, Virginia Beach, etc. I suspect that many liberal proponents imagine these scenarios because their activist brain lives for problems. Its as if they don't really want solutions, but rather, they unconsciously want more problems so it gives them a reason to complain and a justification to argue. Its almost as if they don't feel complete unless there is some abject misery in the world they can exploit to make themselves feel better. Its bizarre.

When the first guy your boss accuses of stealing from the till is anybody but the white employee, that's white privilege.

Oh please... The person running the till, irrespective of their race, is the number one suspect. Then you go from there and either prove guilt or innocence.

Receiving lighter sentences for the same crimes is a privilege white people have.

According to the Bureau of Justice:

    Of persons under sentence of death in 2005:
    -- 1,805 were white
    -- 1,372 were black
    -- 31 were American Indian
    -- 34 were Asian
    -- 12 were of unknown race.

    Of persons executed in 2006:
    -- 32 were white
    -- 21 were black

Oh, wait, the Bureau of Justice is probably run by only white people who have skewed the statistics in order to appear as though they aren't really racist. Obviously they are racist if they're white. :rolleyes:

When you turn on the news and see nothing but stories about important white people delivered by white reporters, that's white privilege.

Oh, yes, obviously it couldn't possibly be that the person happened to be white. Here's a hint Crash. The media in this country is so predominantly far to the "progressive" side of the fence that I have to tie my television down so it won't fall to the left. In other words, these are more fantasies.

When the news media, the movies, the TV shows all make it seem like being "white" means being "normal", and being "non-white" means being a "minority", that's a privilege.

There are more caucasians in this country than anyone else, though, hispanics will likely outnumber caucasians in about 100 years. If they use the term, "minority," its because that's what they are. Since when is minority an epithet? Minority is the opposite of majority and nothing more.

When the culture consistently heralds the accomplishments of white people, but other races only get a token level of praise, that's privilege.

What are you talking about? If you're going to be heralded for anything, it has to be something worth heralding in the first place. Seems to me that they herald things based on their merits, not because they are white. Seriously, where do you come up with this stuff?

When the music of white people is considered "culture" but the music of other races is considered "ethnic", that's privilege.

Example?

* Whites can turn on the television or read the newspaper and expect to see members of their own race widely represented;

That's funny, because I read about people from all races.

* Whites can expect their children to read books and materials in school that affirm and discuss the history of their race;

What?!?!? Excuse me, I've never read even ONE children's book that affirms the history of their "race." Consequently, I have seen numerous children's books on black anthology. Here's another one. And another. Oh, and here is my favorite, named, "Just Us books." Wow! Here's a great idea: How about we read children's books that don't discuss race. Call me crazy, but I think children's books should NOT focus on race because it just stigmatizes anyone not affiliated with that specific race and it teaches kids seperatist ideas that just exacerbate segregation.

* Whites can swear, dress in second-hand clothes, or not answer letters, without having others attribute these behaviors to the bad morals, the poverty, or the illiteracy of their race;

:laugh: That's because your "race" doesn't determine this. Your society DOES. This guy is a genius.

* Whites can speak their opinions without being asked to speak for their race;

Yeah, because it isn't applicable to ANYTHING.

* Whites can do well without being called credits to their race;

LOL! If its any one who does that, its either blacks themselves or white liberals who do that! Oh, my gosh, this is hilarious. This guy is so full of it.

* Whites easily locate books, greeting cards, toys, and magazines prominently featuring members of their race;

I can locate any of those items with ease from any race. Hmmmm? I wonder how many books or magazines in the Sudan, Egypt, Laos, Thailand, Eritrea, Syria, or Iran I can find someone representing me. Oh, wow, imagine that.... ZERO! But then again, who cares!!!

* Whites do not have to wonder whether they are being singled out because of their race when being approached by the police

Neither do black people. Thugs have to worry-- of any race. Lets see, suppose we have a group of white kids acting the fool compared to a group of black men not causing any problems. Seems to me the police would deal with the behavior before they dealt with people on the basis of race.

* Whites can take jobs without accusations that they were hired as part of racial quotas;

That's not my fault. Since he is a liberal, he should blame himself for supporting AA.

* Whites are most often evaluated by members of their own race;

Blacks are evaluated by members of their own race, and so are Asians, and so are Arabs, and so do Hispanics. If you live in a place where there are members of your race, its kind of hard not to.

* Whites do not appear threatening to those of the dominant culture.

That all depends on the person and how they carry themselves, not the race itself. But then again, Steve Urkel strikes much more fear in me than Hulk Hogan, so what am I talking about?

As you can see, there's nothing nonsensical or unreasonable about what I'm saying.

Just about everything you've said in this thread is nonsensical and unreasonable.

race envy is, of course, racist at its heart

That's funny, because it sounds like you have a serious case of it. I was born the way I was born. Nothing is going to change that fact. That goes for everyone.

it's nothing more than anger at "uppity niggers" who dare to be more successful - or even just plain luckier - than less successful whites. It's an expression of racist privilege, the assumption that no black person should have anything unless a white person decides to give it to them. And it's anger at the slightest suggestion that the privileges of whites has been eroded.

You have to be the quintessence of what Sowell is talking about in his book. You're practicly the poster boy.


"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis
This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by crashfrog, posted 01-20-2007 6:05 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by crashfrog, posted 01-21-2007 5:11 PM Hyroglyphx has responded
 Message 107 by tudwell, posted 01-21-2007 7:05 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded
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Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5655
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


Message 104 of 130 (378740)
01-21-2007 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by AdminBuzsaw
01-21-2007 2:00 PM


Re: Racist/Lies
Hi NJ. Though I'm sure it's not pleasant being maligned as a racist and though I see your defense of this charge as substantial, to be evenhanded in moderating, since I've admonished others for charging the opponent of lying, I suggest you take the advice of myself and AdmnModulous to use a less inflamitory choice of words/phrases than lying in voicing the opinion that one is perpetrating a falicy or is mistaken. Thanks.

Done deal. I should probably just drop the thread anyway. Its been thoroughly hijacked and derailed enough any way. Thanks for your moderating.


"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis
This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by AdminBuzsaw, posted 01-21-2007 2:00 PM AdminBuzsaw has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Buzsaw, posted 01-21-2007 8:35 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 105 of 130 (378753)
01-21-2007 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Hyroglyphx
01-21-2007 4:22 PM


Re: Thinking about privilege
Then you must live under a rock because slavery is long since dead and black people are afforded the exact same rights as every one else.

So, because there's not slavery anymore, racism is a thing of the past?

Who exactly lives under a rock, here? I'm not talking about legal rights, I'm talking about privileges.

But they have the same rights.

We're not talking about rights, we're talking about privileges - things you get, or don't have to worry about, because of your race.

But those days are all but gone so that we are on an equal playing field

Except that they aren't, and we're not. How many times do I have to prove it? I've proven it over and over and over again, but it just doesn't make an impression on a racist, does it?

Having said that, the majority of America, by far, has never been further away from those backward ideals than it is right now.

Who said otherwise? The problem is, there's a long way to go before equality. But rather than push towards that future, you'd rather engage in victim-blaming to assuage your guilt.

My friend's name is Chris Woody

Yeah, yeah, "some of your best friends are black." Racists always say that. It's coded language for "I'm about to say something racist, but I don't want to be called out as racist for it."

He's a damn good carpenter. And because of his QUALIFICATIONS, he has more job offers than he knows what to do with.

Great. So what? Who ever said a black man couldn't be a good carpenter, except you who's absolutely certain that any time you've been passed over for a job for a minority, it's "affirmative action" and not simply you being out-competed in the workforce?

According to the Bureau of Justice:

How do your stats disprove my assertion? They don't seem to have anything to do with it. Moreover, your stats prove that black people are disproportionately more likely to recieve the death penalty than whites (hint: you need to compare the ratio of blacks to whites on Death Row vs. the ratio of blacks to whites in the population as a whole, and additionally to the ratio of blacks to whites charged with capital crimes.)

Oh, wait, the Bureau of Justice is probably run by only white people who have skewed the statistics in order to appear as though they aren't really racist.

But your stats prove racism. What are you talking about?

Oh, yes, obviously it couldn't possibly be that the person happened to be white.

Wha...? No, of course they're white. That's what we're talking about, NJ! White people!

What is wrong with your reading comprehension today? Are you even paying attention to what you're writing?

What are you talking about?

How many world-renown composers from history can you think of?

How many of them are white? How many of them are black?

Example?

How many classical composers can you think of that are black? How many of them are white? Why do you think we call their music "classic" and not "European"?

I wonder how many books or magazines in the Sudan, Egypt, Laos, Thailand, Eritrea, Syria, or Iran I can find someone representing me.

You don't live in those countries, NJ. Do you not even know where you live?

Why should I continue having a discussion with someone who doesn't even remember what country he lives in? Seriously?

That's not my fault. Since he is a liberal, he should blame himself for supporting AA.

Who's a liberal? Who should blame what?

Seriously, NJ.

What the fuck are you even talking about?

Honestly this post of yours makes even less sense than usual. I suggest you go back, re-read what I wrote, and try to respond again. Absolutely nothing you've said bears any indication you understood my plain statements in English, that you know how to construct a rebuttal, or that you even know what country you live in and what race white people are. How can you possibly expect to take part in a discussion when apparently the most basic facts are a complete mystery to you?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-21-2007 4:22 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-22-2007 11:50 AM crashfrog has responded

  
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