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Author Topic:   Asexual to sexual reproduction? How?
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1432 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 5 of 78 (245384)
09-20-2005 11:19 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Eledhan
09-20-2005 11:04 AM


Eledhan writes:
... rare ...
It does not matter how rare an event was when it has happened. A meteor hit the Yucatan, a highly rare event, but it happened. Adding {numbers\qualifiers} to make the rarity event seem even more highly improbable is just the argument from incredulity, and is nothing less than the inability of the {incredulous person} to be as ingenious as nature {is\was}.
We surmise from mitochondria that some early bacterial organisms injected themselves into, or we engulfed by, others.
We also observe viruses injecting segments of {DNA\RNA} into genomes as well as coopting cells to reproduce the virus.
We see snails, as Crashfrog mentions, that are {a\bi}sexual and can inject {sperm} into another making it pregnant or vice-versa: either can be "male" or "female" -- and it is highly likely that this is the form of {early sex} because it is not that different from a single organism making a {clone\child}.
But. I will agree that this is hypothesis with very little observational data to base it on from the deep past when this would have occurred.
On the other hand, if sex is a "designed feature" ... then it is surely a candidate for Silly Design ...
ps welcome to the fray.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Eledhan, posted 09-20-2005 11:04 AM Eledhan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Eledhan, posted 09-22-2005 9:45 AM RAZD has replied
 Message 37 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-24-2006 11:00 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1432 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 7 of 78 (245421)
09-21-2005 7:54 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Dr Jack
09-21-2005 7:35 AM


nice
I was also going to bring up mosses
Moss Reproduction
that use both mechanism for reproduction, showing another group with dual capabilities.
I also thought about the transition from distributing spores to distributing pollen. Not that difficult a transition (and mollusks use similar in the water): one starts new {individual} the other impacts and existing individual and modifys the {spores} that it ejects.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Dr Jack, posted 09-21-2005 7:35 AM Dr Jack has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1432 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 21 of 78 (245799)
09-22-2005 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Eledhan
09-22-2005 9:45 AM


Re: Silly Design...
Eledhan, msg 9 writes:
... but I figured I would just try to rebutt the comment RAZD made about Silly Design relating to this current topic.
Unfortunately you didn't rebutt anything, all you did was make an argument from incredulity followed by an unsubstantiated assertion with no evidentiary basis, and a non-sequitur to boot.
I hope you don't think that sex was a silly thing to design ...
It could have been a serious design and it could have been a silly design, that is part of looking at both sides of the design question. When I look at the design elements, though, I have to admit that my impression is that the way it is implemented fits Silly Design Theory better than Neo-Paleyanism (often called "Intelligent" design).
Now, if you wish to try to refute the concept, please demonstrate that sex is sensible to the point of distraction and that no jokes have ever been made about this behavior. Then we can discuss the rational behind all the sex toys ... and related behavior.
Just for starters.
Or you can wait to see the research by the Silly Design Institute into this matter.
P.S. I realize that this is not really related to the topic ...
But if you are going to dismiss evolution as a process to develop sex, then you are left with either creationism (god created animals that way) or some form of design theory.
"God did it" is unprovable, so the only argument left then is some form of design theory, and when you compare both sides of the design question you will see that Silly Design Theory makes much more sense than Neo-Paleyanism in relation to the actual evidence of not just species but behavior.
{added "neo-" to distinguish this new version from previous ones, although the sum scientific contribution in the interim period is sadly lacking in content}
This message has been edited by RAZD, 09*22*2005 07:03 PM

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Eledhan, posted 09-22-2005 9:45 AM Eledhan has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1432 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 22 of 78 (245803)
09-22-2005 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Cal
09-22-2005 3:37 PM


Re: Red Queen
Anyone ever looked at exploiting them as a food source?
Ants do. They have aphid farms, and milk them for their 'honey'

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Cal, posted 09-22-2005 3:37 PM Cal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Cal, posted 09-23-2005 9:58 AM RAZD has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1432 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 47 of 78 (367001)
11-29-2006 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Hyroglyphx
11-24-2006 11:00 AM


Its being realistic.
No it isn't. Being realistic is to say that we don't know what the possibilities are\were, thus we cannot say that it was improbable, nor can we say that it was highly likely.
I really fail to understand why the probability issue is so hard to grasp realistically.
Let's say I have three di in my hand. Each one has a number of sides on it, but you don't know how many and each could be different. You don't know if the sides are equal or not, or if they are perpendicular to the center of mass of the di, thus each side could have different metastable conditions affecting likelyhood of balance on that face. You don't know how the di are marked.
What is the probability that I will throw a "7" eh? You can't even calculate how many different possibilities of arrangements there are that affect the calculation of the possibilities of results.
The realistic answer is "we don't know - there isn't enough information to know" and any pretense otherwise is just a logical fallacy of one kind or another.
I have asked the question why nature would have selected sex over asexual reproduction.
The answer that comes back is that if evolution was involved then there was either a survival advantage or a reproductive advantage.
And likely the later, seeing as an organism that develops a feature that allows it to cause other organisms to reproduce its offspring doesn't have to spend its resources and energy on the process, and so it has more time and energy to use causing other organisms to reproduce its offspring.
Also as noted there are bacteria that inject DNA into other bacteria, and there are snails that wage the war of the sexes at a very basic level: whoever impregnates the other gets to play the "daddy" role, they get an offspring without having to spend its resources and energy on the process, and so it has more time and energy to use causing other snails to reproduce its offspring, while the other gets to play the "mommy" role and has to spend its resources and energy to form and bear the offspring before getting back into the battle: there are life forms that exhibit intermediate stages between complete asexual reproduction and complete sexual reproduction.
{abe} see Message 42 for some comments on the evolution stages of sex {/abe}
In a static population there is usually only one offspring per set of parents survives to adulthood.
Not at all. There are usually way more offspring produced in the course of reproductive life of the parents, even for ones that only bare 1 young per pregnancy (and which is not the norm eh?).
There are usually way more offspring than there are parents, whether the population is static, increasing or decreasing. What controls the population size is natural selection, not birth rate.
... asexual reproduction is twice as fast as sexual reproduction, ...
You are comparing apples and oranges.
Consider a process whereby you would have to split down the middle and progressively fill in the gap with copies of cells from the right side onto the left side and from the left side onto the right side until the two halves could seperate into two new individuals. You would need much more cell division -- PLUS cell migration to the appropriate place -- than occurs in the development of a fetus, and based on time for that cell division ALONE to take place it would take much longer.
Then you have long periods of gestation, ...
Not for the male. The male has zero time for gestation and rarely needs more than a few minutes to be ready for the next mating.
This also means that the males have time and energy to provide defense for their offspring (and any females that are producing them), so that rather than a whole population of individuals incapacitated by dividing down the middle for over a year or so, you have some to ward off predators so the whole population can survive.
How, then, is sexual reproduction less costly than asexual propagation?
For the same reason that having specialized organs within an organism is less costly than having all the cells capable of doing all the jobs: specialization and sharing.
Think of a population of a sexual species as a number of super organisms, where individuals are specialized organs within a {population body} -- it is essentially "asexual" in its reproduction of new {population bodies} of the same species, and the {population body} divides when conditions are right, without input from other {species}.
(hmm. this applies to the Is death a product of evolution too ... )
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : typo, added ref to Lithodid_Man's excellent post

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-24-2006 11:00 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
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