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Author Topic:   Evolution and the BIG LIE
Percy
Member
Posts: 18801
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 56 of 108 (442443)
12-21-2007 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Elmer
12-21-2007 2:27 AM


Re: Good discussion with Elmer
The detailed level of examination of evolution in the thread so far seems akin to using a microscope to look for elephants. The definition from the OP was:

RAZD in Message 1 writes:

We'll start with the process, where evolution is the change in hereditary traits in populations from generation to generation

Another very similar way of saying the same thing is that evolution is the change in allele frequencies over time in a population.

There will always be differences of opinion about the best way to define something. If you don't like those definitions of evolution then feel free to provide your own, but it has to accurately define it. It wouldn't make any sense to pick apart a definition of your own invention not accepted by science.

What seems most evident is that you are either unaware of or dispute much of the evidence for evolution, and I would suggest skipping over all the minutia about grammar and definitions to focus on that.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Elmer, posted 12-21-2007 2:27 AM Elmer has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18801
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 60 of 108 (442532)
12-21-2007 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Elmer
12-21-2007 1:17 PM


Re: Good discussion with Elmer
Elmer writes:

Well, in truth, where biological evolution is concerned, and aside from those rare instances where one organism consciously or, more oftern unconsciously, selects one member of the opposite sex to be its sexual partner and so join in the mutual effort of generating offspring, [that is, what is commonly called, 'sexual selection], selection' is as far from being a 'fact' as it is possible to get.

You really don't have a clue about evolution, do you?

Nobody has as yet observed, either in the lab or in nature, a case where random genetic mutation is indisputably the causal mechanism for an increase in the productivity of a biosystem.

Yep, not a clue!

Also, nobody has ever observed, in the lab or in the field, a case in which 'natural selection' rises above the level of a meaningless truism, that is a trivial observation of an effect, i.e., the current state of local ecosystem composition.

What is the point of making declarations about something you know nothing about?

Evolution is more than just 'any old change in an organism'.

Uh, remember Message 1, where RAZD provided his definition? Or Message 56 where I provided an alternative definition?

What I _am_ denying is the neo-darwinian, 'Modern Synthesis', Fisherian assumption-- that evolution is subsumed within genetics, [including population genetics]. That is, the condition wherein evolution is reduced to being just one facet of the study of heredity. The opinion that evolution is merely an epiphenomenon of faulty inheritance mechanisms.

You're making up your own definitions again. Rebutting your own definition of evolution is a pointless exercise. You have to rebut the actual definition, not your imaginary one.

None of the above has the least pertinence wrt to myself and my opinions. You seem to have somehow managed to confuse me for a creationist, i.e., an advocate of biblical literalism. Please don't do that again.

You're not being equated with a creationist. It is your ignorance of evolution that is being equated with that of a creationist. They're pretty much equivalent.

...we can call it "RAZDism" and say that it is "hereditary variation and adaptation in a population from generation to generation."

You can, of course, call it whatever you wish. The trick is to get people to agree with you.

RAZD wasn't calling it RAZDism. What he said was, "If it makes you feel better we can call it 'RAZDism'," and he said this because you seemed to be exhibiting an aversion to the word "evolution". He's just saying that if the word "evolution" makes you feel uncomfortable that we could use a different word, but the definition is unchanged and is broadly accepted by the scientific community.

Inherited variety wrt traits, [which I take you to mean by "hereditary variation and adaptation"] can be unchanging, constant, static within a particular taxon, or can be seen as constantly changing and reconfiguring itself between individual members of that taxon, with no reference to 'evolution' whatsoever--IOW, just heredity, plain and simple.

And this is why RAZD suspects you have an aversion to the "evolution" label. Heredity is the genetic storage and transmission mechanism by which traits are inherited. Evolution is genomic change in populations over time.

BTW, interesting article that seems to bear on this question--
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/318/5858/1842

Yes, it does seem to bear on the question, describing at one point the types of genetic change (mutation) that can occur.

I think it necessary to arrive at a generally accepted definition of the process [evolution] itself, apsrt from its supposed causal mechanisms.

You've been offered several definitions of evolution already. As long as it's accurate, go ahead and offer your own.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Elmer, posted 12-21-2007 1:17 PM Elmer has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18801
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 82 of 108 (444150)
12-28-2007 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Elmer
12-27-2007 9:55 PM


Re: Waiting again for Elmer
Hi Elmer,

If only your goal had been to create a confusing hash, then your post could have been called a success. I'm not even going to attempt to untangle your Gordian knot of garbled prose and forced misinterpretations.

If you really dislike RAZD's definition of evolution then I again suggest that you offer your own. There's almost always at least a few ways to define anything.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Elmer, posted 12-27-2007 9:55 PM Elmer has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18801
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 86 of 108 (445638)
01-03-2008 8:58 AM


Need to Agree on a Definition of Evolution
If I could moderate this thread (I can't, I've already participated as a regular member), I would work with the participants to find a definition of evolution they both agree with. Elmer continues to criticize RAZD's definition, and I think it would be much more productive if he simply proposed his own definition, because I think it would make the differences in their positions much more clear.

--Percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by RAZD, posted 01-05-2008 12:57 PM Percy has not yet responded

    
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