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Author Topic:   Evolution and the BIG LIE
ICANT
Member (Idle past 24 days)
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 90 of 108 (446252)
01-05-2008 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by RAZD
01-05-2008 10:59 AM


Re: Just the process for now, thanks.
I find it rather amusing that just using the word "evolution" causes such topic drift ... as a result, I have decided to try not to use the word further in this discussion to prevent wasting another 87 posts.

Hi RAZD,

I think the problem with the word evolution is that it is to many as it is to me. That is it includes everything from the point that there was nothing until what we have today. This is what I always understood evolution to mean until I came to EvC. You are trying to take a part of that process and call it evolution.

Remember what I believe about the word evolution has entirely nothing to do with what the scientific world believes about evolution, or calls evolution for that matter.


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by RAZD, posted 01-05-2008 10:59 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by RAZD, posted 01-05-2008 1:59 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
ICANT
Member (Idle past 24 days)
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 92 of 108 (446291)
01-05-2008 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by RAZD
01-05-2008 12:57 PM


Re: Starting from basics - with the process as the foundation
Hi RAZD,

As you know I believe in creation by God.

Biological Process #1 is the change in hereditary traits in populations from generation to generation.

I can agree with this statement. Things do change some for better some for worse.

Biological Process #2 is the division of a 'parent' species into two (or more) 'daughter' species.

Speciation is also often seen as the division line between micro-effects and macro-effects in the study of biological life, and so we may want to look at this as another process,

Question: Are you now saying Process #1 is micro-effects and Process #2 is macro-effects?

But in the following statement you are saying that they are the same.

As has been demonstrated so far, this fits with creationist "variation and adaptation within kinds," and "speciation within the kind" so we should be able to agree on these processes as occurring in modern life, and that there is sufficient evidence for these processes that we can say it is a fact that they occur.

By this statement you are saying that all changes in micro-effect and macro-effect have resulted in whatever you started out with only being a different variety of the same thing.

If this is what you are saying I can agree.

Now that you have combined micro and macro into the same thing are you going to use TRANSMUTATION when you start to talk about one thing becoming a totaly different thing?

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?

book=Dictionary&va=transmutation
transmutation
act or instance of transmuting or being transmuted: as a: the conversion of base metal into gold or silver b: the conversion of one element or nuclide into another either naturally or artificially.

The conversion of one element to a competely different element had to take place thousands of times for us to have arrive where we are today from a single cell life form that nobody has any knowledge where that first life form came from, there is much speculation but no knowledge in science.


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by RAZD, posted 01-05-2008 12:57 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by RAZD, posted 01-05-2008 6:24 PM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member (Idle past 24 days)
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 94 of 108 (446345)
01-05-2008 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by RAZD
01-05-2008 6:24 PM


Re: Starting from basics - with the process as the foundation
Thanks RAZD,

What we are looking at is descent from parent populations and variation and adaptation within isolated sub-populations of species up to the point they become independent daughter populations.

So you are saying this is micro-effects and macro-effects as you put forth in Process #1 and #2.

So these independent daughter populations that don't associate with each other are still fruit flys. Nothing has changed except the way they behaved toward each other.

wiki article writes:

it was observed that the flies would mate only with others from their adapted population.

It did not say they could not mate only that they were observed not to mate.

So yes I agree so far.

Let's save this for later, and see if we need to come back to it. For now I want to take small steps, taking the time necessary to get as many interested people in agreement as possible.

I will anxiously await the part where one element changes to a competely different element.


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by RAZD, posted 01-05-2008 6:24 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by RAZD, posted 01-05-2008 7:51 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
ICANT
Member (Idle past 24 days)
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 97 of 108 (446381)
01-06-2008 12:28 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by RAZD
01-05-2008 9:38 PM


Re: On to the theory then. Perhaps?
Hi RAZD,


Theory #1:
That each species known today can be traced backwards to parent species through historical, fossil or genetic records, while only involving (1) the change in hereditary traits in populations from generation to generation, and (2) the division of a 'parent' species into two (or more) 'daughter' species.

Its your theory so have at it.

We start with today and work backwards, generation by generation, species by species (in theory). Where we do not have sufficiently complete information to show Process (1) and Process (2) are sufficient to explain the descent of daughter species from parent species, we will have to say that we don't know for sure.

When you get to the point that you do not have sufficient evidence you can go no further unless you are going to accept by faith that something happened. Then I will say why should I have faith in your theory when You say my theory is based on faith and therefore is unbelievable.

So when you reach the point evidence is not sufficient to prove Position #1 and Position #2 you must say ok we are at a dead end.


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by RAZD, posted 01-05-2008 9:38 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by RAZD, posted 01-12-2008 7:36 PM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member (Idle past 24 days)
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 99 of 108 (448281)
01-12-2008 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by RAZD
01-12-2008 7:36 PM


Re: On to the theory then. Perhaps? Creo vs Evo predictions from the theory?
Hi RAZD.

If we can agree on this and the tests for the different corollaries then we can move on to the evidence for descent.

You are aiming at somebody I ain't. You are looking for yec's lots of luck.

I would like to see the progress.

Have fun,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by RAZD, posted 01-12-2008 7:36 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by RAZD, posted 01-13-2008 7:36 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
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