Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,815 Year: 4,072/9,624 Month: 943/974 Week: 270/286 Day: 31/46 Hour: 3/3


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Vowles and Amos - the issue of convergent DNA sequences
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4926 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 31 of 40 (220322)
06-28-2005 3:01 AM


does this falsify evolution
JohnRay makes an interesting point on a different thread concerning the claim that embryonic and genetic development shows homologous structures do not necessarily stem from homologous gene sequences. If this is the case, it would seem to falsify evolution.
I think it's pertinent to this thread. Can anyone verify if his claims are correct.
In general, development patterns violate evolution (ie, homologous structures do *not* share homologous development or genes).
Here is what it means: similar structures in related species (such as in the same genus), come from different genes and/or develop in completely different ways. This makes no sense on evolution, and it is rampant in biology.
An example that has been known for decades is the eye of the frog species Rana fusca and Rana esculents which determination and differentiation are completely different (in one the lens develops from the epidermis on the optic cup. In the other, the optic cup does not induce the lens to develop). This sort of thing is common, and not surprisingly we often find different genes involved. Evolution predicts that similar structures, in similar species, would be homologous. That is, they derive from the same structure that appears in their most recent common ancestor. Hence they should come from the same genes and development pathway. It would be very strange for two similar species of frog, in the same genus, to have evolved their eyes independently. Or, it would be equally strange for evolution not to evolve the eyes indendently, but while preserving the eye structure and design to change around how it develops and the corresponding genes. The only explanation I can think of is the latter, but that is quite weak. It amounts to blind faith in evolution. And this would have to happen quite frequently. It definitely falsifies a prediction of evolution (no one expected it by any means).
http://EvC Forum: Smoking-Gun Evidence of Man-Monkey Kindred: Episode II... Tails -->EvC Forum: Smoking-Gun Evidence of Man-Monkey Kindred: Episode II... Tails
This message has been edited by randman, 06-28-2005 03:06 AM

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Wounded King, posted 06-28-2005 4:27 AM randman has replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 32 of 40 (220326)
06-28-2005 4:27 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by randman
06-28-2005 3:01 AM


Re: does this falsify evolution
Did you even bother to continue reading that thread? If so you would have noticed that there was a pretty thorough discussion of John Ray's rather half hearted attempt at a reference to actual research. Have you actually read up any of the relevant research or are you just grasping at any rubbish thrown up on the web?
This also seems fairly off-topic for this thread to me. The topic here is supposed to be convergence rather than divergence and particularly in terms of the genetic examples or bases for convergence, this seems more suited to your discussions of embryology in the Haeckel thread or if you think you have something new to bring to the discussion of those induction experiments why not actually post it on the 'Smoking-Gun...' thread which is surely the most suitable place.
I don't understand why you would re-post something which has already been pretty thoroughly discussed in the very thread you cut and pasted from.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by randman, posted 06-28-2005 3:01 AM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by randman, posted 06-28-2005 4:38 AM Wounded King has replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4926 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 33 of 40 (220328)
06-28-2005 4:38 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Wounded King
06-28-2005 4:27 AM


Re: does this falsify evolution
I read it, and it did not appear to be thoroughly dicussed. There was some discussion, but by no means thorough. There was a thorough discussion of one example, but Ray mentioned others, and seemed to draw his conclusions from evolutionist textbooks.
It's a genuine question. Is that what is taught, and if so, is it correct?
One example being discussed is not thorough, imo.
If homologous structures arise without homologous DNA sequences, then that suggests convergent evolution, or perhaps special creation, but it seemed appropiate to be mentioned here considering the paper deals with convergent evolution of DNA.
I realize that in some ways it is opposite since really if homologous features arose via convergent evolution than that may not be an example of convergent DNA.
On the other hand, I am sure if this is the case, evolutionists are nonetheless arguing that common descent is true anyway, and it could be useful to see the explanation of that. Specifically, if homologous features arise via different DNA sequences, there must be some plausible explanation for maintaining common descent?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Wounded King, posted 06-28-2005 4:27 AM Wounded King has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Wounded King, posted 06-28-2005 4:41 AM randman has replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 34 of 40 (220330)
06-28-2005 4:41 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by randman
06-28-2005 4:38 AM


Re: does this falsify evolution
Well the frog is the only example you referenced. Lets continue this on the original smoking-gun thread, it is off topic here. Unless that is you have some actual evidence showing that there are no genetic homologies underlying specific homologous structures.
TTFN,
WK
This message has been edited by Wounded King, 06-28-2005 04:43 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by randman, posted 06-28-2005 4:38 AM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by randman, posted 06-28-2005 4:48 AM Wounded King has replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4926 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 35 of 40 (220332)
06-28-2005 4:48 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Wounded King
06-28-2005 4:41 AM


Re: does this falsify evolution
OK, and I did actually put the frog quote in there prior to completing the thread, and did not think to change it before posting. I basically had 2 windows open, but the whole thing did seem astonishing, and we can leave it alone, but if we get into a lot assertations from others that such and such cannot be, it may be useful to consider this.
This is not my area of expertise. I just read review articles which clearly admit that development is not conserved (eg, "it is the rule rather than the exception that homologous structures form from distinctly dissimilar initial states." Sys Zool, 34, 1985, 46).
I just figured if textbooks are saying this is the rule not the exception, that it would be common knowledge here, and there would be some sort of stock answer to it, and it would be useful to consider how evolutionists treat this issue since it involves DNA and evolution, which is the larger context of this thread.
I am not trying to get off-topic since it should be easy to know if zoologists and others consider the claim true in general, and maybe I could better understand evolutionists general claims concerning mutations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Wounded King, posted 06-28-2005 4:41 AM Wounded King has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Wounded King, posted 06-28-2005 4:54 AM randman has replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 36 of 40 (220334)
06-28-2005 4:54 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by randman
06-28-2005 4:48 AM


Re: does this falsify evolution
AS I SAID BEFORE, LETS TAKE IT TO THE OTHER THREAD, YOU HAVE ALREADY POSTED THIS QUOTE THERE.
I'm sorry for shouting, but this really is off topic here, I will address that quote in the other thread.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by randman, posted 06-28-2005 4:48 AM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by randman, posted 06-28-2005 6:39 AM Wounded King has not replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4926 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 37 of 40 (220351)
06-28-2005 6:39 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Wounded King
06-28-2005 4:54 AM


Re: does this falsify evolution
Btw, I'll be gone the next 2 days.
Also, it was just a question. I saw your answer on the other thread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Wounded King, posted 06-28-2005 4:54 AM Wounded King has not replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 38 of 40 (220448)
06-28-2005 12:36 PM


I think a related topic is the way in which a number of structures previously thought to be analogous, i.e. the results of convergent evolution, have been shown to have conserved genetic elements in their development, good examples would be the wings of birds and insects (Tumpel, et al., 2002) and the eyes of octopuses and humans (Ogura, et al., 2004).
So far the preponderence of the genetic evidence is strongly in favour of common descent rather than independent convergence of genetic sequences due to the requirements of similar function.
TTFN,
WK

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by randman, posted 07-05-2005 4:54 PM Wounded King has replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4926 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 39 of 40 (221942)
07-05-2005 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Wounded King
06-28-2005 12:36 PM


what do evolutionists believe....?
So far the preponderence of the genetic evidence is strongly in favour of common descent rather than independent convergence of genetic sequences due to the requirements of similar function.
WK, this is an area we have touched on before and something I'd like to know what the current state of science suggests.
When you say "the requirements of similar function", am I right to think you mean that certain genetic sequences must be in place to produce similar functions, and hence the word "requirement"?
The reason I ask is that in all of these debates and in reading thus far in my life, it's not clear to me what evolutionists believe in this area.
Do they believe different genes and sequences can produce similar features and function?
Or, do they believe there has to be some of the same genes and sequences to produce similar features and function?
This message has been edited by randman, 07-05-2005 04:55 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Wounded King, posted 06-28-2005 12:36 PM Wounded King has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Wounded King, posted 07-06-2005 6:01 AM randman has not replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 40 of 40 (222078)
07-06-2005 6:01 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by randman
07-05-2005 4:54 PM


Re: what do evolutionists believe....?
When you say "the requirements of similar function", am I right to think you mean that certain genetic sequences must be in place to produce similar functions, and hence the word "requirement"?
If your theory of genetic level convergence was correct then that would presumably be its basis, that a specific genetic sequence was required for a specific trait which has evolved convergently between two disparate species, otherwise you would only have phenotypic/morphological convergence.
Do they believe different genes and sequences can produce similar features and function?
Yes they do. There are some instances, first one to hand might mislead you due to the term 'convergent'.
Convergent Evolution of Amadori Opine Catabolic Systems in Plasmids of Agrobacterium tumefaciens
Chang-Ho Baek, Stephen K. Farrand, Ko-Eun Lee, Dae-Kyun Park, Jeong Kug Lee, and Kun-Soo Kim1.
Journal of Bacteriology, January 2003, p. 513-524, Vol. 185, No. 2
Deoxyfructosyl glutamine (DFG, referred to elsewhere as dfg) is a naturally occurring Amadori compound found in rotting fruits and vegetables. DFG also is an opine and is found in tumors induced by chrysopine-type strains of Agrobacterium tumefaciens. Such strains catabolize this opine via a pathway coded for by their plasmids. NT1, a derivative of the nopaline-type A. tumefaciens strain C58 lacking pTiC58, can utilize DFG as the sole carbon source. Genes for utilization of DFG were mapped to the 543-kb accessory plasmid pAtC58. Two cosmid clones of pAtC58 allowed UIA5, a plasmid-free derivative of C58, harboring pSa-C that expresses MocC (mannopine [MOP] oxidoreductase that oxidizes MOP to DFG), to grow by using MOP as the sole carbon source. Genetic analysis of subclones indicated that the genes for utilization of DFG are located in a 6.2-kb BglII (Bg2) region adjacent to repABC-type genes probably responsible for the replication of pAtC58. This region contains five open reading frames organized into at least two transcriptional soc (santhopine catabolism) groups: socR and socABCD. Nucleotide sequence analysis and analyses of transposon-insertion mutations in the region showed that SocR negatively regulates the expression of socR itself and socABCD. SocA and SocB are responsible for transport of DFG and MOP. SocA is a homolog of known periplasmic amino acid binding proteins. The N-terminal half of SocB is a homolog of the transmembrane transporter proteins for several amino acids, and the C-terminal half is a homolog of the transporter-associated ATP-binding proteins. SocC and SocD could be responsible for the enzymatic degradation of DFG, being homologs of sugar oxidoreductases and an amadoriase from Corynebacterium sp., respectively. The protein products of socABCD are not related at the amino acid sequence level to those of the moc and mot genes of Ti plasmids responsible for utilization of DFG and MOP, indicating that these two sets of genes and their catabolic pathways have evolved convergently from independent origins.
This paper shows that two distinct groups of genes can be responsible for the catabolism of Amadori opines and that these functionally equivalent genes are not related at the amino acid sequence level.
Or, do they believe there has to be some of the same genes and sequences to produce similar features and function?
Not really although there are some instances where this is arguably the case, not at the genetic level but at the amino acid level. The function of a protein is very tightly coupled to its structure, some interactions will require very specific residue positions indeed. In such a case we might expect to find that a similair protein structure or even 1ary amino acid sequence has evolved convergently, but this need not be reflected in the genetic sequence coding for the protein. So they do not believe that this has to happen, but it certainly may happen, at the amino acid level at least.
Glutamate Decarboxylase: Computer Studies of Enzyme Evolution
B. S. Sukhareva and O. K. Mamaeva
Biochemistry (Mosc). 2002 Oct;67(10):1180-8
The homology of subunit primary sequence of 40 glutamate decarboxylases (GAD) of different origin was analyzed by multiple alignment. A phylogenetic tree was designed on the basis of the resulting data. The following groups are distinguished in the consensus tree: archeans, bacteria, plant eukaryotes, and animal eukaryotes. The latter are clearly divided into two branches according to two enzyme isoforms. Borders of PLP domains in each enzyme were detected. The consensus phylogenetic tree for PLP domains is structurally rather similar to that obtained for subunits. Twenty homologous motifs of from 15 to 87 amino acid residues were revealed in all GAD studied. The results revealed the division of all of the enzymes into groups with characteristic sets of motifs in each and a fixed order of their arrangement along the sequence. Thus, we can show the divergent evolution of the enzyme. The results of multiple alignments during structural analysis of the 40 GAD confirmed and extended our previous data on conserved residues that arrange the position of the coenzyme (PLP) in the enzyme active center. The following residues should be noted: lysine forming a Schiff base with the PLP aldehyde group, an adjacent histidine, and aspartic acid that establishes a link with nitrogen of the PLP pyridine ring. The homology of the primary sequence fragments was also found in the residues in contact with the PLP phosphate group. Comparison of the GAD amino acid sequence with that of another PLP enzyme, aspartate aminotransferase, revealed a binding site for carboxylic group of the substrate--glutamic acid. The structures carrying out a particular catalytic function of all GAD studied were detected, i.e., convergent evolution of the enzyme was revealed.
In this paper a conserved functional site is identified in a family of functionally related but divergent proteins, actually the case here is a bit iffy, I'm not sure why this couldn't be a case of simply maintaining an ancestral acitve site. More probably this is what is often thought of as parallel evolution, this is distinct from straightforward convergence in that the species being compared are thought to have evolved the same functional solutions in similar ways due to having similar initial systems to act as a substrate.
Convergent evolution of disease resistance gene specificity in two flowering plant families.
Ashfield T, Ong LE, Nobuta K, Schneider CM, Innes RW.
Plant Cell. 2004 Feb;16(2):309-18. Epub 2004 Jan 23.
Plant disease resistance (R) genes that mediate recognition of the same pathogen determinant sometimes can be found in distantly related plant families. This observation implies that some R gene alleles may have been conserved throughout the diversification of land plants. To address this question, we have compared R genes from Glycine max (soybean), Rpg1-b, and Arabidopsis thaliana, RPM1, that mediate recognition of the same type III effector protein from Pseudomonas syringae, AvrB. RPM1 has been cloned previously, and here, we describe the isolation of Rpg1-b. Although RPM1 and Rpg1-b both belong to the coiled-coil nucleotide binding site (NBS) Leu-rich repeat (LRR) class of R genes, they share only limited sequence similarity outside the conserved domains characteristic of this class. Phylogenetic analyses of A. thaliana and legume NBS-LRR sequences demonstrate that Rpg1-b and RPM1 are not orthologous. We conclude that convergent evolution, rather than the conservation of an ancient specificity, is responsible for the generation of these AvrB-specific genes.
Where disease resitance genes from 2 divergent lineages are shown to have developed a number of amino acid sequence similarities in concert with having similar targets.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by randman, posted 07-05-2005 4:54 PM randman has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024