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Author Topic:   Evolution Logic
Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 5857 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 63 of 302 (318556)
06-07-2006 1:09 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by arachnophilia
06-07-2006 12:36 AM


again, tell that to this reptile that has hair:
What is that? How can you be sure if it's a reptile, and how can you be sure that is hair?
no, not the same SUBSTANCE. the same GENE. one gene produces both. by default, it produces feathers. with modifaction (addition of one gene) they become scutes in certain places. without the gene, they are feathers.
The same substance, as it was in the site: "Epidermis: characterized by complete covering of keratin (the same stuff that makes up mammalian hair and mammalian, avian, and reptilian nails/claws also makes up the plates we call "scales")." Reptile Skin Basics
See, that site said the same "stuff", not gene. I was going off that site.

"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown

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Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 5857 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 64 of 302 (318557)
06-07-2006 1:12 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by jar
06-07-2006 12:37 AM


Re: Yet another mistake
Yup, pretty clear you don't have a clue what you are talking about.
That's not a problem, we have all been in exactly that position.
When life started here, oh 3 or 4 billion years ago, it was single celled. At that stage there was no way to go except towards more complex. But over the years, things happened, and at times it was the less complex critters that were the winners in the survival game.
Remember, that humans are not a goal. We are just one of many of the critters, and it's way to early to tell if we are a successful one or not. It's absolutely certain that we are not going to be among the most successful designs, turtles and cockroaches got us beat hands down there.
Evolution is what works. If a creature that lost it's legs as it moved into a water environment had an advantage over the one with legs, and the legless wonder reproduced better than the legged one, eventually the population would be legless.
Evolution is just a history of what worked, what didn't.
Ok, as I pointed out above, that wasn't true, that wasn't really a whale in evolution, check out that site I linked to. So the whole argument changes, that was not a whale losing legs, the first couple of creatures in the supposed "whale evolution" were not really whales, check out that site for details.

"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown

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Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 5857 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 66 of 302 (318559)
06-07-2006 1:21 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by arachnophilia
06-07-2006 12:42 AM


an outside possibility, since one of the two features had to have developed first.
You forgot the possibility that God created those creatures, so no evolution was needed, and nothing needed to come first.
and it has hair, or at least something very, very similar to it.
Hey, that site said reptiles do not have hair follicles. So tell me, if that was a real reptile, how could it get hair without hair follicles. It could also be a fake... Like Archaeopteryx...
we can be nearly certain.
But not completely.
no, see, that's the part i just went over. not all dinosaurs did, and the smaller theropods certainly did not. for instance, all deinonychosaurs (dromaeosaurs [velociraptor], troodons, archaeopteryx, and all modern birds) have hollow bones.
But what about the other differences between reptiles and birds? How could evolution do that? Check out this site for more on that: No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.darwinismrefuted.com/natural_history_2_02.html

"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown

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Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 5857 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 69 of 302 (318562)
06-07-2006 1:30 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Rob
06-07-2006 12:54 AM


Thanks Rob, for helping out a little here. It's quite like 1 (me) against the rest. Glad someone is out there to stand up for TRUTH. Yes, the truth will set you free. I'm free, so good to be free. I wish this for those who have not yet found the truth. Keep searching. I'll be praying for you guys.
P.S. I read your proposed topic, I made it in time. It's good, I think we could have a nice debate there about science and truth and propaganda (evolution). Hope they would allow it.

"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown

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Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 5857 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 70 of 302 (318563)
06-07-2006 1:31 AM


Have to go. Be back later.
May God bless you all richly!

"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown

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Someone who cares
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Message 105 of 302 (319259)
06-08-2006 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by arachnophilia
06-07-2006 1:16 AM


Re: Great example
Oh, I just want to tell you guys, I wrote a whole essay on the topic of evolution. So if you could read it, I won't have to repeat many of those things here. Here is where you will find it: Page Not Found - Webs
read more closely. mesonychus was the proposed ancestor to whales (differing very obviously in the teeth). pakicetus was the was find that overturned that hypothesis.
have a look at the skulls again. pakicetus's skull is almost passable for a modern whale's skull, except for the location of the nostrils and eyes.
Are you referring to the Pakicetus skull FRAGMENTS? Or do you have the whole skull? Because Gingerich constructed a picture of the skull and Pakicetus with just 2 skull fragments! How would you know what the rest of Pakicetus looked like if you only found 2 skull fragments? You could guess and make assumptions, but 2 pieces of a skull are not very convincing...
and you won't in amphibians, either. (because those are PECTORAL fins -- forelimbs. not hind legs)
So you said it, those are pectoral fins. Nothing else?! Not a transition? Not a leg? So is Tiktaliik invalid as a transitional form? Have you reached that conclusion?
yes. it's oddly between the two, isn't it?
No, it's only one. Not between anything. I don't see anything of a fin there.
fish don't have flippers. they have fins. this one has exceptionally long lobed fins. that end in well definied digits.
did you catch that? it has hands and fingers.
Of course fish don't have flippers! That's what I'm saying, it's probably not a fish or transition at all! Probably some kind of seal like creature with flippers.
Hand? Fingers? Could you show me? I didn't see that.
no, they are not homologous to flippers. they are extended lobed fins.
But how can you be so sure? They look more like flippers to me than some super sized fin-legs.
yes, it is. the distance between the "fin" and the body is two great to call it anything but a limb. it has a jointed apendage protruding from its torso, that ends in fingers. what would you call it?
I didn't catch the fingers. But I would probably call it some kind of flipper like thing.
maybe you don't know anything about biology?
No, actually, I know a little more about biology than other science topics.
i made no claims about the rear end.
But the rear end holds much needed information to tell us what Tiktaliik really is!

"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown

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Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 5857 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 106 of 302 (319266)
06-08-2006 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by arachnophilia
06-07-2006 1:23 AM


it's an archosaur. it's a reptile. do you doubt that pterosaurs are reptiles?
Hey, guess what. I did a google define search for the word archosaur, and here is one of the definitions: archosaur: "Ruling Reptile'. The group of animals that included dinosaurs, crocodiles, birds, and pterosaurs" define:archosaur - Google Search
Notice that "birds" was included in the definition. That's what we have here with your creature, a bird.
what does it look like to you?
Some lines sticking out from the creature. You know, they could have been faked, it's a possibility. It's not that hard to carve out some lines in a fossil. I mean, how would hair fossilize? Have you ever thought of that? Inner organs don't fossilize too well, how would hair have fossilized? It's so thin and soft...
they are actually mistaken. the chemical makeup of reptilian scales and bird feathers differ. if you don't believe me, well, check any creationist site on the question. they like to herrald that piece of evidence as proving that bird feathers couldn't have come from reptilian scales. which actually proves very little.
If it's a mistake, why don't you tell them about it, so they can fix it? Even so, how would you know if the feathers and scales came from the same gene? Can you prove it?
yes, and refer to scutes, it is the same gene. that's the point i was making -- not only are those chemical compositions the same, but so are the genes.
Scutes? Scutes are scales, not anything to do with feathers!
Wait, you just said it was a mistake, they aren't of the same composition, now you say there are? Which is it?

"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by arachnophilia, posted 06-07-2006 1:23 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
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Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 5857 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 107 of 302 (319277)
06-08-2006 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by arachnophilia
06-07-2006 1:52 AM


if god created creatures, he did so in such a way that would change over time. that much, we have evidence for.
Creature can change, but only within limits, within thier own kind, for that, we do have evidence. But for macroevolution, we do not.
by evolving follicles.
But it already had scale follicles, why would it also evolve hair follicles? So those creatures would have had hairy scales? Is that what you're saying? Or were they losing scales follicles and evolving hair follicles instead, being bare for some time?
i'm not sure i should even entertain this. it was a ridiculous idea when it was proposed in the 1850's, and it's even more ridiculous today. to fake all 7 specimens the same way, so that they all produce perfect replicas of perfectly aerodynamic feathers would literally require the hand of god. we are finding more and more features in archaeopteryx even today that they had no idea about in the 1850's -- and all new specimens match the first one. read all about it, here.
I think some of the specimens were faked. But either way you look at it, archaeopteryx has no link coming to it and leaving from it, so it's not a valid transitional fossil anyway. It doesn't show scales evolving into feathers, it shows fully developed feathers.
as previously mentioned, many non-avian dinosaurs have hollow bones.
That doesn't prove they had air sacs or something.
it's not speculation. it's reasonable inference. name me a cold-blooded animal that walks on two legs? i bet you can't do it. in fact, name me a cold blooded animal that walks on four legs, but with its legs fully underneath its body. there's a REASON you can't do it: none exist, because none CAN exist. cold-blooded animals have to stick close to the ground for warmth.
any animal that walks upright has to be warm-blooded, otherwise it dies of heat loss.
But then again, dinosaurs were reptiles, reptiles are cold blooded. I don't think we can reach a real conclusion. We weren't there to witness it, so we can't be sure of much.

"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown

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Replies to this message:
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Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 5857 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 108 of 302 (319283)
06-08-2006 8:50 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by RAZD
06-07-2006 7:54 AM


Not really, that is what "micro"evolution covers - speciation, of which we have many many examples.
Yes, microevolution, we do have examples of that. But NOT macroevolution. There is a big difference between the two.
You never will. This is a strawman concept and not evolution. "Macro"evolution is the accumulation of microevolutionary changes until the divergence is sufficient that we humans say "wow, it's really different" -- it's really an artificial human intellectual construct.
But you will only ever see "micro"evolution between species in many steps in between. Now if you are interested in exploring those many steps over long periods of time that show a sufficient divergence that we humans say "wow, it's really different" -- we can do that.
Macroevolution is not a combination of microevolution. Microevolution is the variations within a kind, we see that happen all the time. Macroevolution is changing the kinds, that cannot happen, never has, never will, and has NEVER been observed. It's not possible, there are limits to the variation.
Genetics does not prevent it, and thus it does permit it. There is no difference to genetics where or what any mutation is, they just happen.
Genetics don't permit it. They have limits, that evolution would need to cross, but this cannot happen. Mutations? They can't make evolution happen.
This is "hopeful monster" evolution and not real. You need to think this thru a little better than this.
For instance, what do you think a "half feather - half scale" fossil would look like? and then consider whether you would accept it as such or only as one or the other?
This is why I asked for your definitions here. You seem to expect "macro"evolution not just on the time scale of speciation but on a one generation change.
Speciation takes several generations, and "macro"evolution takes several speciation events to accomplish -- generations of generations.
I cannot picture a scale-feather. That is what makes evolution so ridiculous. I am not saying that the change has to happen in one generation. I'll let you use millions of generations, as your theory proposes. But you will not find a scale evolving into a feather. So, what is the hopeful monster theory? Finding that a scale slowly evolved into a feather, and seeking the transitional forms? Or, instead, finding that scales SUDDENLY evolved into feathers, without leaving any transitional forms?

"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 5857 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 110 of 302 (319285)
06-08-2006 8:54 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by jar
06-07-2006 8:01 AM


Re: Yet another mistake
well, AnswersInGenesis is not much of a source, and we have all been there and seen what they have to say. In addition, the AIG article does not really offer any evfidence in support of their assertions, but only a series of arguments from incredulity. They really offer nothing to support their position except that they don't believe it.
I could say the same about Talk Origins or any other sources you guys use.
What is so funny is that AIG actually ends up proving macroevolution even while claiming it does not. You message itself is proof of macroevolution.
You say "... the first couple of creatures in the supposed "whale evolution" were not really whales,...". Of course not, they are the ancestors of the whales. That is why this is such a great example. Here is something that is clearly not a whale, and that overtime evolved into modern whales. The whales are almost as good an example of macroevolution as we are ourselves.
No, they do not prove macroevolution, and neither do I. Because we do not claim that those creatures ever evolved into whales. They didn't! They were seperate creatures created by GOD. So we did not prove macroevolution. Because we did not tie those creatures together with whales.

"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown

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Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 5857 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 113 of 302 (319291)
06-08-2006 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by RAZD
06-08-2006 8:50 PM


Re: bump for SWC
Still looking for your definition of "macro"evolution.
I would say macroevolution would have to be the evolution of big changes between family taxons or higher taxons.

"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown

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Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 5857 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 114 of 302 (319293)
06-08-2006 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by ramoss
06-07-2006 8:55 AM


Other than the claims of some old old books, there is no evidence of that.
Supernaturla explainations are irrelavent to science. The evidence also shows that evolution has occured. That is a fact. The model on how and why evolution occurs is the theory.
Really? You have evidence of evolution, macroevolution? Let me at it. The evidence does NOT show evolution to occur, it shows the opposite.

"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown

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Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 5857 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 115 of 302 (319297)
06-08-2006 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by RAZD
06-07-2006 10:16 PM


Re: Can you define "MACRO"evolution?
And what kind of time scale will you consider?
Anything you could show me. But this has to be a change between kinds of animals or plants, not species.
Just to repeat some things that have been said on this issue: evolution is change is species over time. Any change in any direction is evolution - even those that cause death.
Sometimes features are discarded when they are no longer useful - because they waste energy and resources to produce that could be better 'spent' on other newer features. Hind legs on whales fits that picture, eyes on animals in caves also fits that picture. That does not prevent some features from developing in new directions to become new kinds of limbs.
Ok, so maybe that would show evolution, but it wouldn't help the evolution theory that a single cell evolved into a human. It may have happened, you can believe it is part of evolution, but in order for the progressive evolution from a cell to a human to be real, we would need many advances and growth. But decreases and loss may happen sometime in there, but that's nothing that would convince me of evolution.

"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown

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Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 5857 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 118 of 302 (319302)
06-08-2006 9:23 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by kuresu
06-07-2006 11:24 PM


I guess someone's already asked it by now, but what do you mean by kind?
I cannot say for sure, but it would most likely be somewhere around the family taxon. Can you define species for me?
However, if kind is at the kindom level, we have that. The oldest fossils are of bacteria about 3.8 bya. If single-celled organisms that old can be preserved, and we haven't found any multicelled that old, well, its fairly safe to say they were here first. Then all of a sudden, the Protists arrive on the scene, and that is explained by the endosymbiosis theory. Then the protists developed animal like and plant like characteristics (generally both aren't present in the same species (I don't know of any, so . . . )). These are the ancestors of multicelled animals and plants. Fungi are either descendents of animals or split with the animals from the protists, and they are more related to us than they are plants.
The 3.8 bya thing is not true. This earth is only about 6,000 years old.

"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown

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Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 5857 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 120 of 302 (319305)
06-08-2006 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by kuresu
06-07-2006 11:38 PM


Re: Great example
Tell that to Linnaeus, the father of the modern taxonomic system. All living organisms share a few basic features, like cell membranes, DNA, ribosomes, ability to procreate without a host (unless biologists have changed that recently) and a few others. It is the fact that a vertebrate has a backbone that all backbones creates are in the phylum Vertebrate. Well, actually, there are couple of more features invovled that have to deal with the backbone (notochord being one of them), but that's a single feature common to all vertebrates. And voila, one common feature, they are the same kind.
Also, why not?
You cannot say a certain animal is the same kind like another animal ONLY because of one similar feature. It takes more similarities than just one.
Besides, I could say, the cell of plant has a nucleus, the cell of a human also has a nucleus, so they must be the same kind. See? That would make a lame argument. And you wouldn't take that.
Those creatures could not have evolved into whales because there are limits in variation, which would not permit this type of change.

"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown

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