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Author Topic:   Evolving New Information
LucyTheApe
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 458 (509535)
05-22-2009 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
05-01-2009 8:57 AM


gca
Percy writes:

# GGAACG (green eyes)
# GGAACA (blue eyes)
# GGCACG (yellow eyes)

Bull shit Percy.

You don't know what strand of DNA codes for what.


There no doubt exist natural laws, but once this fine reason of ours was corrupted, it corrupted everything.

blɛz paskal


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Percy, posted 05-01-2009 8:57 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by LucyTheApe, posted 05-22-2009 9:56 AM LucyTheApe has not yet responded
 Message 44 by NosyNed, posted 05-22-2009 9:59 AM LucyTheApe has responded
 Message 45 by Percy, posted 05-22-2009 10:05 AM LucyTheApe has not yet responded

  
LucyTheApe
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 458 (509538)
05-22-2009 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by LucyTheApe
05-22-2009 9:45 AM


Re: gca
While we're here this is a good opportunity to flesh out the details
of what the genetic code actually does.

Percy, do you believe that the DNA code appeared without intelligence?

Off topic material hidden.

The topic is about the evolution of information based on previously existing information.

Edited by AdminNosy, : Heading off a topic distraction.


There no doubt exist natural laws, but once this fine reason of ours was corrupted, it corrupted everything.

blɛz paskal


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by LucyTheApe, posted 05-22-2009 9:45 AM LucyTheApe has not yet responded

  
LucyTheApe
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 458 (509542)
05-22-2009 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by NosyNed
05-22-2009 9:59 AM


Re: It's an Example
Nosy writes:

Yes, he does, Lucy.

Percy can speak for him/her self.


There no doubt exist natural laws, but once this fine reason of ours was corrupted, it corrupted everything.

blɛz paskal


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by NosyNed, posted 05-22-2009 9:59 AM NosyNed has not yet responded

  
LucyTheApe
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 458 (509544)
05-22-2009 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by NosyNed
05-22-2009 9:59 AM


Re: It's an Example
Nosy writes:

Yes, he does, Lucy. This is a hypothetical example. If you haven't got that much yet then you should go back and read everything v e r y s l o w l y.

How much more do I have to consider these things?

Edited by LucyTheApe, : s


There no doubt exist natural laws, but once this fine reason of ours was corrupted, it corrupted everything.

blɛz paskal


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by NosyNed, posted 05-22-2009 9:59 AM NosyNed has not yet responded

  
LucyTheApe
Inactive Member


Message 78 of 458 (510233)
05-29-2009 7:10 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
05-01-2009 8:57 AM


Percy writes:

You weren't specific about what portions of my example you took issue with, so help me figure this out. Our organism has three alleles for eye color:

* GGAACG (green eyes)
* GGAACA (blue eyes)
* GGCACG (yellow eyes)

Since there are three messages in the message set for this gene, the amount of information it can communicate is log23 = 1.585 bits. This is just straightforward information theory, I'm just setting the table right now, there shouldn't be anything here to take issue with. I think this is what you prefer to call complex specified information, and I'll attempt to accommodate you.

I'll take issue with it Percy.

There are 6 lots of 4 possibilities according to your model. That's 46 different possibilities. You can't add information to that but it's interesting to hear you talk about messages.

Edited by LucyTheApe, : gammar


There no doubt exist natural laws, but once this fine reason of ours was corrupted, it corrupted everything.

blɛz paskal


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Percy, posted 05-01-2009 8:57 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by NosyNed, posted 05-29-2009 8:31 AM LucyTheApe has responded

  
LucyTheApe
Inactive Member


Message 80 of 458 (510244)
05-29-2009 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by NosyNed
05-29-2009 8:31 AM


Re: Why not?
NosyNed writes:

Why not?

Because according to Percy's view there are 4096 different kinds of eyes (color). Now add information to this!


There no doubt exist natural laws, but once this fine reason of ours was corrupted, it corrupted everything.

blɛz paskal


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by NosyNed, posted 05-29-2009 8:31 AM NosyNed has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Percy, posted 05-29-2009 9:47 AM LucyTheApe has not yet responded
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LucyTheApe
Inactive Member


Message 122 of 458 (515448)
07-18-2009 5:03 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by slevesque
06-21-2009 4:25 AM


slevesque writes:

BTW I never found that quote where Shannon talks of biological systems. So unless I ever find it in the future, it doesn't exist and I agree I was in error.

Shannon rejected numerous attempts for him to apply his mathematical theory to DNA.

Shannon had a language, an encoding system and a decoding system already in place when he did his experiments.

But the truth is an encoding and decoding system can determine the bandwith of transmission.

What Shannon never did was explain, in a mathematical model, what information is!.

Others have tried. The best we have is that information is not part of the physical sciences.


There no doubt exist natural laws, but once this fine reason of ours was corrupted, it corrupted everything.

blɛz paskal


This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by slevesque, posted 06-21-2009 4:25 AM slevesque has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Percy, posted 07-18-2009 7:35 AM LucyTheApe has not yet responded

  
LucyTheApe
Inactive Member


Message 151 of 458 (519480)
08-14-2009 4:24 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by greyseal
08-14-2009 2:45 AM


What is information?
greyseal writes:

somebody who sincerely believes what they say and holds this viewpoint, what exactly do you mean by "an increase in information"?

What do you mean by "information" greyseal?

Let me give you my interpretation of information and I wont touch on Percy's mistakes.
You were able to express you thoughts through your message to us. You rely on "our" sophisticated technology as a medium. No one can deny that this technology is the work of the human mind(s). Yet you are able to ascribe a infinitely more sophisticated system to chance. That's just not logical.
For more information, please read the book entitled "Reason" by a chimpanzee called Info.

Edited by LucyTheApe, : Further information


There no doubt exist natural laws, but once this fine reason of ours was corrupted, it corrupted everything.

blɛz paskal


This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by greyseal, posted 08-14-2009 2:45 AM greyseal has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by greyseal, posted 08-14-2009 6:38 AM LucyTheApe has responded
 Message 154 by Percy, posted 08-14-2009 7:49 AM LucyTheApe has responded

  
LucyTheApe
Inactive Member


Message 157 of 458 (519571)
08-15-2009 12:00 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by greyseal
08-14-2009 6:38 AM


Re: What is information?
greyseal writes:

So, set some goal posts. I know what I mean by information - Percy's example way back on page 1 is an example of it. Is it what you mean or not?

That's a good idea greyseal and pertinent. But first we must agree that information exist outside of matter. Do you agree?

Percy's numeric interpretation is not relevant here, it's a quantitative measure(Shannon). Shannon never dealt with the question of "what is information". I've tried, every time I jump on this site to go back through and try and understand how Percy introduced new information but I end up quitting.

I could be wrong but my interpretation of Percy's point is this: Given three sets of base pairs you can have a mutation to produce a fourth base pair and hence new information(different eye colour). That's crap. Those genes are there specifically to provide input into the eye colour machine. If you get dud parts (bad parameters) the machine wont work. It's exactly what Shannon considered noise. Noise degrades information exactly as 2ndLaw degrades the universe.


There no doubt exist natural laws, but once this fine reason of ours was corrupted, it corrupted everything.

blɛz paskal


This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by greyseal, posted 08-14-2009 6:38 AM greyseal has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by pandion, posted 08-15-2009 12:54 AM LucyTheApe has responded
 Message 160 by Coyote, posted 08-15-2009 1:16 AM LucyTheApe has not yet responded
 Message 163 by greyseal, posted 08-15-2009 6:53 AM LucyTheApe has responded

  
LucyTheApe
Inactive Member


Message 158 of 458 (519572)
08-15-2009 12:06 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by Percy
08-14-2009 7:49 AM


Re: What is information?
Percy writes:

These are the alleles after the mutation produces a new allele:

* GGAAGC (green eyes)
* GGAAGA (blue eyes)
* GGCACG (yellow eyes)
* GGCAAG (brown eyes)

The number of alleles was 3, which can be represented in log23 = 1.585 bits, and then it increased to 4, which is log24 = 2 bits, and that's an increase in information of .415 bits.

You see the mistake your making here Percy. You assume that noise increases information. This exposes your lack of understanding. What you are saying here is that information is as matter. It's not.


There no doubt exist natural laws, but once this fine reason of ours was corrupted, it corrupted everything.

blɛz paskal


This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Percy, posted 08-14-2009 7:49 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by Percy, posted 08-15-2009 8:26 AM LucyTheApe has not yet responded

  
LucyTheApe
Inactive Member


Message 161 of 458 (519578)
08-15-2009 5:55 AM
Reply to: Message 159 by pandion
08-15-2009 12:54 AM


Re: What is information?
pandion writes:

But, Shannon was concerned with communication, not genetics. Shannon began with the message, encoded it, transmitted it through a medium, received it and decoded it. For Shannon, any change in the message caused by noise was a decrease in information. Thus the oft repeated claim that it is impossible to increase information.

Yes! That's what I'm saying.
Information is information, doesn't matter what medium you use or for what purpose.

private void swap ( object a, object b){
temp = new object;
temp = b;
b = a;
a = temp;}

A snippet of information, show me how you can mutate this code and introduce new information, piecewise!

Genetic information doesn't work that way.

No? Why is it that evolution doesn't comply with the natural laws but instead has a set of laws all of its own. Laws that can't be demonstrated in the natural world we live in?

What a strange view of things you have. Have you ever actually studied thermo?

I'm sure everyone who has studied science has been introduced to the laws. Mentioning ^&*(&%% of thermodynamics on a evolutionism site is like turning the light on cockroaches; they scatter.

Coyote writes:

Are you basing your opinion/worldview of both entropy and "no new information" on the mythical "Fall?"

Its not an opinion, were talking exact science. My opinions or world view don't count neither do yours.

Edited by LucyTheApe, : No reason given.

Edited by LucyTheApe, : No reason given.


There no doubt exist natural laws, but once this fine reason of ours was corrupted, it corrupted everything.

blɛz paskal


This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by pandion, posted 08-15-2009 12:54 AM pandion has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by greyseal, posted 08-15-2009 6:37 AM LucyTheApe has responded
 Message 173 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-24-2009 5:01 AM LucyTheApe has not yet responded

  
LucyTheApe
Inactive Member


Message 164 of 458 (519582)
08-15-2009 7:22 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by greyseal
08-15-2009 6:37 AM


Re: What is information?
greyseal writes:

of course the kicker is, as before, that for all your bluster you have still not defined what information means in your context.

My definition, in its most basic form, information is an encoded message.

"It's a lovely day in outback Australia, again today"
" It' día encantador del S.A. en el interior Australia, otra vez today"

Same message, different encoding.

"It's a lovely 243523asdsdf asdfasdf day in outback Australia, again today"

According to Percy, I've just added information to my original message. Do you think I have?


There no doubt exist natural laws, but once this fine reason of ours was corrupted, it corrupted everything.

blɛz paskal


This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by greyseal, posted 08-15-2009 6:37 AM greyseal has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by Huntard, posted 08-15-2009 7:45 AM LucyTheApe has not yet responded
 Message 289 by traderdrew, posted 09-04-2009 12:24 PM LucyTheApe has not yet responded

  
LucyTheApe
Inactive Member


Message 166 of 458 (519586)
08-15-2009 8:07 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by greyseal
08-15-2009 6:53 AM


Re: What is information?
greyseal writes:

so tell me this - how come the point mutation for the peppered moth have occured then? This is directly, exactly, what Percy was talking about, only rather than affecting just the eyes, the whole darn moth changed colour.

Oh, yes, good science that, stapling moths onto trees to try prove a world view.

Come and live out out here for a few years, I bet you change colour too but you wont evolve into a dingo.

Have you even considered the possibility that orgamisms may have the ability to adjust to their environment.


There no doubt exist natural laws, but once this fine reason of ours was corrupted, it corrupted everything.

blɛz paskal


This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by greyseal, posted 08-15-2009 6:53 AM greyseal has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by greyseal, posted 08-15-2009 12:44 PM LucyTheApe has responded

  
LucyTheApe
Inactive Member


Message 232 of 458 (521578)
08-28-2009 4:59 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by greyseal
08-15-2009 12:44 PM


Re: What is information?
greyseal writes:

Once again, answer the question - what would you regard as adding information?

You've said that getting random chatter in a sentence, turning (for example) "have a nice day" into "have aalser niceslekjrs dayawer" isn't "adding information"...but it is. The fact that it's nonsense is of no interest. The fact is that's still not how genetics works.

I'll try to explain but I've got a suspicion that you're not going to understand.

I'll show you what I mean by adding information. I'll take my example of a piece of code:


void swap(object a, object b){
temp = new object();
temp = b;
b=a;
a=temp;}

Now I'll add some information:


void swap(object a, object b, object c){
temp = new object();
temp = c;
c=b;
b=a;
a=temp;}

It takes intelligence to create information. It can not be done piecewise by chance.

Your analogy with the Chinese whisper is just silly.

Creative forces in this universe are few and far between.

You guys still don't understand that data is NOT information. Information is datarised for transmission and noise is also data.

But noise is not information. Noise can be interpreted and statements (information) made about the noise but noise is the effect of entropy on information.


There no doubt exist natural laws, but once this fine reason of ours was corrupted, it corrupted everything.

blɛz paskal


This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by greyseal, posted 08-15-2009 12:44 PM greyseal has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by cavediver, posted 08-28-2009 5:45 AM LucyTheApe has responded
 Message 234 by Arphy, posted 08-28-2009 6:01 AM LucyTheApe has not yet responded
 Message 236 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-28-2009 6:17 AM LucyTheApe has not yet responded
 Message 237 by Percy, posted 08-28-2009 7:33 AM LucyTheApe has not yet responded
 Message 241 by greyseal, posted 08-28-2009 8:46 AM LucyTheApe has not yet responded

  
LucyTheApe
Inactive Member


Message 235 of 458 (521584)
08-28-2009 6:14 AM
Reply to: Message 233 by cavediver
08-28-2009 5:45 AM


Re: What is information?
cavediver writes:

That's a nice example. How much more information does the second piece of code contain than the first?

If you want to try quantify the amount of extra information, that's a mathematical task that I'm not going to attempt for the sake of a response.

More importantly the code has introduced functionality that was not previously there.

This is what evolutionism has to try explain, not me.


There no doubt exist natural laws, but once this fine reason of ours was corrupted, it corrupted everything.

blɛz paskal


This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by cavediver, posted 08-28-2009 5:45 AM cavediver has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by cavediver, posted 08-28-2009 8:00 AM LucyTheApe has responded

  
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