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Author Topic:   Evolving New Information
Huntard
Member (Idle past 458 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 23 of 458 (509086)
05-18-2009 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by slevesque
05-18-2009 5:38 AM


Slevesque, would you say being able to digest food you couldn't digest before qualifies as a new trait?


I hunt for the truth
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 458 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 30 of 458 (509166)
05-19-2009 3:37 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by slevesque
05-19-2009 3:19 AM


slevesque writes:

No I haven't. must not be very popular since I can't even find it on google.


That's probably because Percy was making a joke. It should be beAk of the Finch. You misspelled Finch as Pinch.


I hunt for the truth
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by slevesque, posted 05-19-2009 3:56 AM Huntard has not yet responded
 Message 33 by Percy, posted 05-19-2009 8:35 AM Huntard has not yet responded

    
Huntard
Member (Idle past 458 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 35 of 458 (509219)
05-19-2009 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by slevesque
05-19-2009 2:05 AM


slevesque writes:

Yes it would qualify as a new trait. I have the feeling your are refering to the Lenski experiment, which would be a prime example to discuss this.


Ok, since you admit that being able to digest stuff you couldn't digest before qualifies as a new trait, let me present you with evidence that not only do new traits spring up because of evolution, entire genes spring up, and even new information.

Alright, on with the show!

Our topic today concerns a bacteria, that through evolution, can now digest nylon.

This is the original gene:


Click to enlarge

This gene was copied. But no new information was created, since it was a copy. This also means that one copy can mutate freely.

The next thing that happened wasn't just any mutation, but the most dramatic one we know. A frameshift mutation. This will affect every single amino acid from the point of the frameshift onwards. An example of how this works:

Amino acids are formed by a combination of three nucleotides, for example:

|G A A | C G C|
Glutamate|Arginine

Now, when you insert a nucleotide (which is what this mutation does), it doesn't just change the amino acid it gets inserted to, but every single one after that as well, again for example we insert C into the first position:

|C G A | A C G| C
Alanine|Threonine

So much for the example.

There are 427 amino acids in the original gene. Now, creationists like to claim that the ability to digest nylon was already there in the gene, but they're wrong.

The frameshift occurred at the 33rd amino acid, altering over 92% of the gene's information. Seen here in red:


Click to enlarge

This is NOT a loss of information, however, because this gene is a copy.

The frameshift added a new sequence to the gene, seen here in green:


Click to enlarge

But not only that, it also made a new start codon at the insertion point. This means that this is an entirely new gene!

This is the entirely new gene:


Click to enlarge

And now: How much information was created by this?

There are 4 nucleotides total.So, when we take the equation from information theory:

LOG2(4) = 2 bits (the 4 here being the total number of possibilities)

An amino acid is made by three nucleotides, so that is:

3*2 bits = 6 bits for every amino acid

since this mutation generated a sequence of 392 amino acids, we get:

392*6 bits = 2352 bits of completely new information.

The source of all this can be found here

And the video I kinda transcribed here is found here

Edited by Huntard, : Picture wasn't working


I hunt for the truth
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 458 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 82 of 458 (510255)
05-29-2009 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by LucyTheApe
05-29-2009 9:09 AM


Re: Why not?
LucyTheApe writes:

Because according to Percy's view there are 4096 different kinds of eyes (color). Now add information to this!


No there aren't. There are only 3 in the beginning, and four after the mutation. Seriously, what is so hard to understand here?

Edited by Huntard, : Spellings


I hunt for the truth
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 458 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 142 of 458 (519243)
08-12-2009 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by pandion
08-12-2009 2:53 PM


Re: Condons
Woundedking wasn't talking about Drew's example. He was talking about Percy's example first given here: Message 1

So, uhm, I think you owe someone an apology.


I hunt for the truth
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 458 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 165 of 458 (519583)
08-15-2009 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by LucyTheApe
08-15-2009 7:22 AM


Re: What is information?
LucyTheApe writes:

"It's a lovely 243523asdsdf asdfasdf day in outback Australia, again today"

According to Percy, I've just added information to my original message. Do you think I have?


Yes. It's nonsensical, but it IS more information.

Edited by Huntard, : changed it a bit


I hunt for the truth
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 458 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 353 of 458 (524689)
09-18-2009 5:22 AM
Reply to: Message 351 by LucyTheApe
09-18-2009 5:12 AM


Re: Genetics of melanism
LucyTheApe writes:

We're living in two different dimensions greyseal. You claim that an organism develops brand new beneficial functions due to gamma rays smashing apart the information rich genetic structure of DNA.


No he doesn't. Is this how you think mutations occur?


I hunt for the truth
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 458 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 354 of 458 (524690)
09-18-2009 5:26 AM
Reply to: Message 352 by LucyTheApe
09-18-2009 5:19 AM


Re: Genetics of melanism
LucyTheApe writes:

Besides, it adds NO NEW INFORMATION.


You didn't ask for new information, you asked for a beneficial mutation. It was provided.


I hunt for the truth
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 458 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 418 of 458 (543932)
01-22-2010 4:05 AM
Reply to: Message 417 by greyseal
01-22-2010 1:13 AM


Re: that's a pretty impressive amount of evasion!
And this is not even the first thread about information Lucy's been in.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 417 by greyseal, posted 01-22-2010 1:13 AM greyseal has not yet responded

    
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