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Author Topic:   Evolving New Information
Arphy
Member (Idle past 3092 days)
Posts: 185
From: New Zealand
Joined: 08-23-2009


Message 171 of 458 (520811)
08-24-2009 4:24 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by greyseal
08-15-2009 12:44 PM


Re: What is information?
Greyseal says
"You've said that getting random chatter in a sentence, turning (for example) "have a nice day" into "have aalser niceslekjrs dayawer" isn't "adding information"...but it is. The fact that it's nonsense is of no interest. The fact is that's still not how genetics works.

It works more like "chinese whispers" (otherwise known as "telephone").
Get about 30 kids together, whisper some phrase to the first child, get that child to whisper to his neighbour and so on.

See what comes out the other side!"

Sorry this doesn't solve the problem. You still have the problem that the kids are using a language that already exists. Yes, you might get a more spectacular sentence but this doesn't mean that you've created anything new, you are still limited to the vocab the kids posess in the first place. One kid might add some gibberish but this doesn't help the message as none of the kids will be able to understand what it means. It just makes things more confusing and distorts the message. It becomes useless (yes, it may serve for some amusement, but generally I'd say most cells in an organism don't tend to make up gibberish to entertain their neighbouring cells )
btw this is my first post, so HI, just a quick question, how do you quote other posts?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by greyseal, posted 08-15-2009 12:44 PM greyseal has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by Wounded King, posted 08-24-2009 4:46 AM Arphy has not yet responded
 Message 175 by traderdrew, posted 08-24-2009 1:31 PM Arphy has not yet responded
 Message 190 by greyseal, posted 08-25-2009 7:04 AM Arphy has responded

  
Arphy
Member (Idle past 3092 days)
Posts: 185
From: New Zealand
Joined: 08-23-2009


Message 196 of 458 (520972)
08-25-2009 8:06 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by greyseal
08-25-2009 7:04 AM


Re: What is information?
Come on bro, drop the chinese whispers analogy
You still haven't explained how new info arises in your analogy.
quote:
A successful mutation (and every one of us is a mutated copy of our parents) results in the next generation.

mutations (and changes) add up...and hey presto.



Not saying that changes can't be made to the "whisper", but that if these mutations are carried on then this is because they have meaning in the language. The mutations may also be corrected by the next kid or just not expressed. Also if there are more negative mutations than positive ones then overall as they add up, the message becomes more nonsense than meaningful.
Still not sure where this is going, but is amusing enough

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by greyseal, posted 08-25-2009 7:04 AM greyseal has not yet responded

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Arphy
Member (Idle past 3092 days)
Posts: 185
From: New Zealand
Joined: 08-23-2009


Message 198 of 458 (520975)
08-25-2009 8:19 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by Wounded King
08-25-2009 7:41 AM


Re: moth myth information -- getting it right
In my opinion the whole moth thing should be avoided. There are far better examples of natural selection an/or mutational changes than discussing a controversial one. The point is (as far as i am aware) that the way the research was carried out was somewhat dodgy.
quote:
But if IDist/creationists were reasonable people we wouldn't keep having these same debates over and over again.
I believe greyseal brought up this topic in message 163 and as far as I can gather he is not a creationist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by Wounded King, posted 08-25-2009 7:41 AM Wounded King has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by PaulK, posted 08-25-2009 8:26 AM Arphy has responded
 Message 200 by Wounded King, posted 08-25-2009 8:53 AM Arphy has not yet responded

  
Arphy
Member (Idle past 3092 days)
Posts: 185
From: New Zealand
Joined: 08-23-2009


Message 204 of 458 (521089)
08-25-2009 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by PaulK
08-25-2009 8:26 AM


Re: moth myth information -- getting it right
exactly, i'm not saying that natural selection didn't occur, but rather because of the controversial nature of the way the research was carried out I think it is best to stick to examples where the research isn't so controversial.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by PaulK, posted 08-25-2009 8:26 AM PaulK has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-25-2009 9:07 PM Arphy has not yet responded
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Arphy
Member (Idle past 3092 days)
Posts: 185
From: New Zealand
Joined: 08-23-2009


Message 210 of 458 (521129)
08-26-2009 6:02 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by PaulK
08-26-2009 1:36 AM


Re: moth myth information -- getting it right
What the...???
All that I was saying was that as many of you have pointed out already, some aspects of the research were dodgy. Can we agree on that. There has been plenty of research on natural selection that was carried out competently. So I was just saying, let's not get sidetracked on whether moths were stuck on trees or not, I don't care too much either way. Instead let's get back on topic. As I remember It wasn't creationists debating whether or not they were stuck on trees but rather it was a debate going on betweeen everyone else. So yes, it was a bit controversial even between evolutionists. As i have said before I am not suggesting that natural selection didn't happen in this instance. I am not attacking evolution in writing this but rather think that we are getting sidetracked. So lets not get up in arms about everything that a creationist writes. Hope this helps

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by PaulK, posted 08-26-2009 1:36 AM PaulK has responded

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 Message 211 by PaulK, posted 08-26-2009 6:09 AM Arphy has not yet responded
 Message 213 by Wounded King, posted 08-26-2009 6:30 AM Arphy has responded
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 Message 226 by greyseal, posted 08-27-2009 8:47 AM Arphy has not yet responded

  
Arphy
Member (Idle past 3092 days)
Posts: 185
From: New Zealand
Joined: 08-23-2009


Message 215 of 458 (521141)
08-26-2009 7:16 AM
Reply to: Message 213 by Wounded King
08-26-2009 6:30 AM


Re: moth myth information -- getting it right
I meant here on the forum, not elsewhere.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Wounded King, posted 08-26-2009 6:30 AM Wounded King has responded

Replies to this message:
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Arphy
Member (Idle past 3092 days)
Posts: 185
From: New Zealand
Joined: 08-23-2009


Message 234 of 458 (521582)
08-28-2009 6:01 AM
Reply to: Message 232 by LucyTheApe
08-28-2009 4:59 AM


Re: What is information?
Yip, well said.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by LucyTheApe, posted 08-28-2009 4:59 AM LucyTheApe has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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