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Author Topic:   Evolving New Information
Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 3559 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 377 of 458 (526841)
09-29-2009 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 376 by Wounded King
09-25-2009 4:58 PM


Re: Irreducible complexity - huh! What is it good for?
Interesting debate. But even if one is to grant that evolution is true, what is the origin of genetic information? That has never been answered.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 376 by Wounded King, posted 09-25-2009 4:58 PM Wounded King has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 378 by Percy, posted 09-29-2009 12:29 PM Calypsis4 has responded
 Message 384 by Wounded King, posted 09-29-2009 2:58 PM Calypsis4 has not yet responded

  
Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 3559 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 379 of 458 (526862)
09-29-2009 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 378 by Percy
09-29-2009 12:29 PM


Re: Irreducible complexity - huh! What is it good for?
I was asking about the origin of any/all genetic information.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 378 by Percy, posted 09-29-2009 12:29 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 3559 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 381 of 458 (526893)
09-29-2009 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 380 by traderdrew
09-29-2009 1:02 PM


Re: Irreducible complexity - huh! What is it good for?
"I don't think I will ever totally buy into totally natural causes for organisms. Maybe I will be convinced if some scientist can prove organisms evolved by the interaction of engergies from a higher order beyond the electromagnetic spectrum at it came from the fourth of fifth dimensions and it had nothing to do with design."

You have a point but I don't buy it period. We are not talking here about a few tiny machines that do remarkable things. It is more accurate to describe it as entire factores or even entire manufacturing regions of factories of a level of complexity that almost defies imagination. With helicase proteins that do their work with great precision at the speed of a jet; ATP turbo engines that also operate at high velocity, and bacterial flagellum with rotors that can start and stop on a dime with an ability to reverse the direction of the motors at speeds of 100,000 rpm, we are talking about a wonder of wonders.

The truth is that nature does not make such factories or anything close to it. All living organisms are produced from other living organisms and even experts like Jack Szostak and company cannot even prod nature into cooperating with them to naturally generate life. Since natural processes simply cannot account for what we observe then the supernatual is the only obvious answer.


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Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 3559 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 385 of 458 (526902)
09-29-2009 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 383 by Coyote
09-29-2009 2:52 PM


Re: Gaps
"So since we don't know how something is done (yet) then your deity is the only possible answer?"

Thanks for the reply. Answer: If you had been a savage from the Amazon jungle who had never seen a Lamborghini (or any car for that matter) before and someone drove one right up in front of you...

then what would be your first question?

(a) How did that thing evolve?
(b) What is this thing and what/who made it?

Be honest in your answer.

Keep in mind that though a Lamborghini is not alive nor made of chemicals it must be understood that (if evolution is true) that there was no life before pre-biotic times and all things were non-living inanimate chemical/minerals. So which 'lugbolt' does an evolution believer start with?


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Replies to this message:
 Message 386 by Perdition, posted 09-29-2009 3:21 PM Calypsis4 has responded
 Message 387 by NosyNed, posted 09-29-2009 3:26 PM Calypsis4 has responded
 Message 388 by Percy, posted 09-29-2009 3:33 PM Calypsis4 has responded

  
Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 3559 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 389 of 458 (526911)
09-29-2009 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 386 by Perdition
09-29-2009 3:21 PM


Re: Gaps
"Chemistry, which predates biotic chemistry, which is all life is, when boiled down to it's base."

That response is like a teacher who repsonds to the question, "Where do we pin-point the origin of human communication through written language? The ancient Sumerians or Akkadians?" So the teaher answers:

"History".

The truth is that no one can come up with the formula as to the origin of even genetic information, still less solving the mystery of the assemblage of living organisms. And the problem becomes many magnitudes of difficult more so when one considers that, after the one celled amoeba there are no two-celled, three-celled, four-celled, or five-celled organisms in the world and that all 6 to 20 celled organisms are parasites.

So it is not just the titanic problem of explaining HOW life assembled itself but HOW it could have proceeded in spite of this huge gap.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 386 by Perdition, posted 09-29-2009 3:21 PM Perdition has responded

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Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 3559 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 390 of 458 (526912)
09-29-2009 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 388 by Percy
09-29-2009 3:33 PM


Re: Gaps
"As I said earlier when I asked you if you were asking about the origin of the *first* genetic information, this thread is not about that.

The topic of this thread concerns how mutation produces new information, see the introductory post."

All right, I will keep that in mind. I thought it was directly related or I would not have asked the question to begin with. Maybe we can take up the question of origins elsewhere.

Have a nice day.


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 Message 388 by Percy, posted 09-29-2009 3:33 PM Percy has responded

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Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 3559 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 392 of 458 (526915)
09-29-2009 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 387 by NosyNed
09-29-2009 3:26 PM


Re: Evolve or Made
"I can quickly see it is an evolved thing and not a designed thing."

I will answer this and move on because I realize we have gotten off topic.

I don't agree with that. That is pure assumption for anyone living in pre-Darwinian times would almost never come to such a conclusion. There are some organisms in the world that simply defy a Darwinian explanation...especially those that have not only do not have transitional forms in the fossil record, there are not fossils of them yet discovered. Like:

Or...Grammatostomias flagellibarba:

I will take this up elsewhere.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 387 by NosyNed, posted 09-29-2009 3:26 PM NosyNed has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 394 by NosyNed, posted 09-29-2009 5:25 PM Calypsis4 has responded

  
Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 3559 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 395 of 458 (526936)
09-29-2009 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 394 by NosyNed
09-29-2009 5:25 PM


Re: Evolved or Made
"Of course, it is unlikely that someone in pre-Darwinian times would be able to see the difference. That is the point. We now have an understanding of the nature of the evolutionary mechanisms and we can even use them to generate outcomes."

You don't get it. Evolution does not exist. It never did.

Common sense dictates that since there is NO example of nature generating life by natural processes and since life is so exceedingly complex (as I stated earlier; not just tiny machines but entire manufacturing regions of factories) and since nature does not make information outside of already existing DNA coded organisms then the only option left to the scientist is a supernatural one. The intricacy and sheer velocity of the transcription/translation/assembly process of the DNA alone is mind boggling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41_Ne5mS2ls&feature=related

But we are off topic and I wish to stop here. I don't wish to be reprimanded on my first day aboard EVC.

Thank you. Have a nice evening.


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 Message 394 by NosyNed, posted 09-29-2009 5:25 PM NosyNed has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 396 by Coyote, posted 09-29-2009 6:43 PM Calypsis4 has responded

  
Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 3559 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 397 of 458 (526951)
09-29-2009 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 396 by Coyote
09-29-2009 6:43 PM


Re: Evolved or Made
You got it, Jack.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 396 by Coyote, posted 09-29-2009 6:43 PM Coyote has not yet responded

  
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