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Author Topic:   Evolving New Information
LucyTheApe
Inactive Member


Message 166 of 458 (519586)
08-15-2009 8:07 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by greyseal
08-15-2009 6:53 AM


Re: What is information?
greyseal writes:

so tell me this - how come the point mutation for the peppered moth have occured then? This is directly, exactly, what Percy was talking about, only rather than affecting just the eyes, the whole darn moth changed colour.

Oh, yes, good science that, stapling moths onto trees to try prove a world view.

Come and live out out here for a few years, I bet you change colour too but you wont evolve into a dingo.

Have you even considered the possibility that orgamisms may have the ability to adjust to their environment.


There no doubt exist natural laws, but once this fine reason of ours was corrupted, it corrupted everything.

blɛz paskal


This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by greyseal, posted 08-15-2009 6:53 AM greyseal has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by greyseal, posted 08-15-2009 12:44 PM LucyTheApe has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18996
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 167 of 458 (519587)
08-15-2009 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by Wounded King
08-14-2009 8:44 AM


Re: What is information?
Wounded King writes:

Is it the case that what that 'information' measurement you are discussing represents is the average information we would be obtaining were we to sample a population. Therefore the more alleles are possible the less likely any particular allele is and therefore the more information we gain on finding any particular allele?

We're on the same wavelength, but I'm going to explain at greater length for the benefit of others before moving on to the rest of your message.

You are correct, except that my example is for a hypothetical population where we know each and every allele of each and every gene. This is because I don't want to deal with the complexity associated with the possibility of incomplete knowledge.

So every organism in the population has this gene, and if you examined this gene across all the organisms in the population, you would find only 3 unique alleles. Then I postulate that one of the offspring receives a point mutation in this gene whose result is a unique allele, and naturally it will pass this allele on to its own offspring. A few generations go by, and if you now poll this gene across the population you will find 4 unique alleles. The increase from 3 to 4 alleles in this gene represents an increase in information in the genome for the population.

At heart communication is the problem of communicating one message from a set of messages. The size of the message set (and the probability of each message, but in crafting examples I always make the probability of each message the same) determines how much information is communicated in a single message. 3 messages takes 1.585 bits, 4 messages 2 bits.

So in biology, the problem is how to communicate an organism's genes to its offspring. For the gene in question there were 3 alleles, and it takes 1.585 bits to communicate one message from a set of 3. When the allele reaches the offspring, 1.585 bits of information will have been communicated. When a mutation produces a 4th allele then the message set is of size 4, and communicating one message from a message set of size 4 requires 2 bits, so when an allele from a gene with 4 alleles reaches the offspring then 2 bits of information will have been communicated.

But isn't this also altered by the allele frequency?

Yes, but I try to avoid mentioning this in order to keep things simple.

Is your Log23=1.58 bits really 1.58 bits = -0.33 Log2(0.33) -0.33 Log2(0.33) -0.33 Log2(0.33).

Yes. For others, let me add that .33 is the probability of one of the messages from a message set of size 3, and that it is necessary to summarize across the message set in this fashion when the probability of the messages is not equal. Oh, and that the probability is actually 1/3, not .33. 3*.33=.99, which isn't 1, and the sum of the probabilities must equal 1. I only mention the roundoff error because it's a minor factor in what you say next:

So if we are talking about the de novo arrival of the new allele lets take a population of 100 and say there is 1 member with the new allele. This give us Shannon entropy =-0.33 Log2(0.33) -0.33 Log2(0.33) -0.33 Log2(0.33) -0.01 Log2(0.01) = 1.65 bits.

When compared with your previous equation the rounding issue is now apparent, but this looks right to me.

Am I using the wrong measurement or just measuring something completely different?

You're more correct than me. I'm erring on the side of simplicity, though I do say "after a few generations" to give the allele time to spread through the population.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Spelling.


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Percy
Member
Posts: 18996
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 168 of 458 (519588)
08-15-2009 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by LucyTheApe
08-15-2009 12:06 AM


Re: What is information?
LucyTheApe writes:

You see the mistake your making here Percy. You assume that noise increases information.

Yes, exactly right, noise can increase information. And I not only assumed it, I proved it mathematically. If you'd like to challenge this then you have to respond to the example I provided in Message 154.

It's analogous to the children's game of telephone, where the message delivered at the end of the line is usually different from the original message. Sometimes the modified message is shorter (less information), sometimes longer (more information).

When additional messages are added to a message set, as can happen during copying, then the message set size increases and the amount of information communicated increases. The Bible is a good example. Some Bibles contain more information than others, and one common way this happened is through scribal error. Noise, if you like.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by LucyTheApe, posted 08-15-2009 12:06 AM LucyTheApe has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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greyseal
Member (Idle past 2183 days)
Posts: 464
Joined: 08-11-2009


Message 169 of 458 (519619)
08-15-2009 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by LucyTheApe
08-15-2009 8:07 AM


Re: What is information?
lucytheape writes:

Oh, yes, good science that, stapling moths onto trees to try prove a world view.

The only people claiming stapling of moths to trees and other such utter rubbish ever happened are the IDiots. It didn't.

Seriously, it was a beneficial point mutation.

lucytheape writes:

Come and live out out here for a few years, I bet you change colour too but you wont evolve into a dingo.

oh come now - we're not talking sunburn, we're talking genetic mutation.

lucytheape writes:

Have you even considered the possibility that orgamisms may have the ability to adjust to their environment.

Umm, ah...yes. It's called "evolution", and it's a very slow process which is controlled by "natural selection". If you haven't read Darwin's "The origin of species" you should do.

Once again, answer the question - what would you regard as adding information?

You've said that getting random chatter in a sentence, turning (for example) "have a nice day" into "have aalser niceslekjrs dayawer" isn't "adding information"...but it is. The fact that it's nonsense is of no interest. The fact is that's still not how genetics works.

It works more like "chinese whispers" (otherwise known as "telephone").

Get about 30 kids together, whisper some phrase to the first child, get that child to whisper to his neighbour and so on.

See what comes out the other side!

What you'll have to remember is that mutations happen all the time - otherwise we would all have exactly the same genetic code as our parents and each other.

My cake-baking analogy is apt (and tasty) - if a mutation is seriously non-beneficial the organism will die or simply not propogate. In cake-parlance, we'd throw it out if it tasted awful. In cake parlance, some of us may like a cake that's overcooked or a bit sloppy with the icing (that's called "adapting to a new biological niche").

In cake parlance, we may hand out the same recipe to our kids, but they may not be quite able to read our bad handwriting and each do things a little differently, and be equally bad at writing down the instructions for their kids properly...after even two generations, you could have up to 8 different types of cake to taste when you have your grandkids around for tea.

Tasty, AND educational.

Edited by greyseal, : expanded the entry with added flava flav


This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by LucyTheApe, posted 08-15-2009 8:07 AM LucyTheApe has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by Arphy, posted 08-24-2009 4:24 AM greyseal has responded
 Message 174 by RAZD, posted 08-24-2009 7:43 AM greyseal has responded
 Message 232 by LucyTheApe, posted 08-28-2009 4:59 AM greyseal has responded

  
greyseal
Member (Idle past 2183 days)
Posts: 464
Joined: 08-11-2009


Message 170 of 458 (519624)
08-15-2009 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by Percy
08-15-2009 8:26 AM


Re: What is information?
percy writes:

LucyTheApe writes:

You see the mistake your making here Percy. You assume that noise increases information.

Yes, exactly right, noise can increase information. And I not only assumed it, I proved it mathematically. If you'd like to challenge this then you have to respond to the example I provided in Message 154.

You may have a long wait - Lucy seems to know exactly what isn't information, but has apparently no idea what is.

Without that all important definition, she hasn't made a single useful point - and it must be so simple, they're all so sure of themselves...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Percy, posted 08-15-2009 8:26 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Arphy
Member (Idle past 2754 days)
Posts: 185
From: New Zealand
Joined: 08-23-2009


Message 171 of 458 (520811)
08-24-2009 4:24 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by greyseal
08-15-2009 12:44 PM


Re: What is information?
Greyseal says
"You've said that getting random chatter in a sentence, turning (for example) "have a nice day" into "have aalser niceslekjrs dayawer" isn't "adding information"...but it is. The fact that it's nonsense is of no interest. The fact is that's still not how genetics works.

It works more like "chinese whispers" (otherwise known as "telephone").
Get about 30 kids together, whisper some phrase to the first child, get that child to whisper to his neighbour and so on.

See what comes out the other side!"

Sorry this doesn't solve the problem. You still have the problem that the kids are using a language that already exists. Yes, you might get a more spectacular sentence but this doesn't mean that you've created anything new, you are still limited to the vocab the kids posess in the first place. One kid might add some gibberish but this doesn't help the message as none of the kids will be able to understand what it means. It just makes things more confusing and distorts the message. It becomes useless (yes, it may serve for some amusement, but generally I'd say most cells in an organism don't tend to make up gibberish to entertain their neighbouring cells )
btw this is my first post, so HI, just a quick question, how do you quote other posts?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by greyseal, posted 08-15-2009 12:44 PM greyseal has responded

Replies to this message:
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Wounded King
Member (Idle past 2416 days)
Posts: 4149
From: Edinburgh, Scotland
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 172 of 458 (520814)
08-24-2009 4:46 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by Arphy
08-24-2009 4:24 AM


Re: What is information?
For quoting and other UBB codes see http://www.evcforum.net/WebPages/UBBCode.html .

I agree that Chinese whispers is not necessarily an apt analogy, but that is principally because genetic sequences aren't like languages. The Chinese whispers analogy also leaves out the selection component which acts to eliminate elements of 'gibberish'.

TTFN,

WK


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 Message 171 by Arphy, posted 08-24-2009 4:24 AM Arphy has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16107
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 173 of 458 (520815)
08-24-2009 5:01 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by LucyTheApe
08-15-2009 5:55 AM


Re: What is information?
A snippet of information, show me how you can mutate this code and introduce new information, piecewise!

if you are genuinely ignorant of the existence of genetic programming, I strongly suggest that you look it up.

No? Why is it that evolution doesn't comply with the natural laws but instead has a set of laws all of its own.

It doesn't. You are raving. I'm glad I could clear that up for you.

I'm sure everyone who has studied science has been introduced to the laws. Mentioning ^&*(&%% of thermodynamics on a evolutionism site is like turning the light on cockroaches; they scatter.

What a curious lie.

The creationist nonsense about thermodynamics would rank high in anyone's list of Huge Creationist Fails. We eat it for breakfast.

If you want to be wrong about thermodynamics, start a new thread, and I (who, unlike you, have studied thermodynamics) will mock you in the way that you deserve.

Or perhaps you will run from this offer like a cockroach from the light.

Its not an opinion, were talking exact science.

Reciting creationist lies is not "talking exact science". It's kinda the complete opposite.


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RAZD
Member
Posts: 20271
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 174 of 458 (520824)
08-24-2009 7:43 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by greyseal
08-15-2009 12:44 PM


moth myth information -- getting it right
Hi greyseal

The only people claiming stapling of moths to trees and other such utter rubbish ever happened are the IDiots. It didn't.
Seriously, it was a beneficial point mutation.

Sorry, wrong on both counts. See Peppered Moths and Natural Selection.

The melanic version was a pre-existing variety before the Industrial Revolution, and yes Kettlewell - in ONE of his experiments - fastened dead moths to a tree trunk to ascertain differential selection.

The Peppered Moths are examples of Natural Selection, not of mutation.

Enjoy.


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Rebel American Zen Deist
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by greyseal, posted 08-15-2009 12:44 PM greyseal has responded

Replies to this message:
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traderdrew
Member (Idle past 3475 days)
Posts: 379
From: Palm Beach, Florida
Joined: 04-27-2009


Message 175 of 458 (520850)
08-24-2009 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by Arphy
08-24-2009 4:24 AM


Re: What is information?
Sorry this doesn't solve the problem. You still have the problem that the kids are using a language that already exists. Yes, you might get a more spectacular sentence but this doesn't mean that you've created anything new, you are still limited to the vocab the kids posess in the first place. One kid might add some gibberish but this doesn't help the message as none of the kids will be able to understand what it means. It just makes things more confusing and distorts the message. It becomes useless (yes, it may serve for some amusement, but generally I'd say most cells in an organism don't tend to make up gibberish to entertain their neighbouring cells)

I'm glad to read a post from someone who can see. The information inside DNA must be specified with little margin for error. If it isn't specified, then why does transcription even take place? If it isn't specified, then genetic information viruses inject into cells wouldn't be effective.

It is amazing how random mutations supposably get it right with specific information at specific places within the genome. So far I remain unconvinced that the genome rolls dice. If it is random, then there should be a lot of trial and errors in the genome but I don't think it is random. I think it is for the most part due to natural genetic engineering.

This is a challenge to Darwinian evolution and especially the spontaneous forming of specified information in any origin of life model.

The genome also uses dual overlapping coding.

As W.Y. Chung, a bioinformatician at the Center for Comparative Genomics and Bioinformatics at Penn State University, has noted, the existence of "dual coding" and overlapping protein-coding reading frames, just one of many cellular innovations for concentrating genomic information, is "virtually impossible by chance." - Signature in the Cell

use [qs] to quote someone at the start. At the end of the quote add a / at the second position in the [qs].

Edited by traderdrew, : No reason given.

Edited by traderdrew, : No reason given.


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Perdition
Member (Idle past 1559 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 176 of 458 (520857)
08-24-2009 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by traderdrew
08-24-2009 1:31 PM


Re: What is information?
It is amazing how random mutations supposably get it right with specific information at specific places within the genome. So far I remain unconvinced that the genome rolls dice. If it is random, then there should be a lot of trial and errors in the genome

Quite correct, which is why a good sign that Evolution by random mutation is correct is the fact that we see a lot of trial and errors. Let's see, considering that I'm not a geneticist by any stretch of the imagination, how many things we have seen that would constitute trial and error in genes I can come up with:

Down's Syndrome
genetic deformations (such as two headed snakes, cows and frogs, or frogs with multiple extra limbs, etc)
Sickle Cell anemia
the sheer number of pregnancies that don't even make it to term because the embryo or fetus that is developing has so many genetic errors that it is incompatible with life

And those are off the top of my head. If I took .002 seconds and did a Google search, I'm sure I could find more. Let's see what you can come up with.


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Replies to this message:
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Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 177 of 458 (520860)
08-24-2009 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by Perdition
08-24-2009 2:12 PM


Re: What is information?
Perdition writes:

Sickle Cell anemia


This trial and error is particularly interesting in that it is detrimental to the health of the organism, except that it also provides significant resistance to malaria. It is a trial that resulted in what we would consider to be an error, except that it also becomes selected for in certain circumstances.

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traderdrew
Member (Idle past 3475 days)
Posts: 379
From: Palm Beach, Florida
Joined: 04-27-2009


Message 178 of 458 (520861)
08-24-2009 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by Perdition
08-24-2009 2:12 PM


Re: What is information?
Down's Syndrome, genetic deformations, Sickle Cell anemia, the sheer number of pregnancies that don't even make it to term

That is a fairly good counterpoint. However, some of those problems are rather rare and of course the sickle cell is something that protects against a specific serious disease. I'm not saying the sickle cell was designed. I'm saying it is probably the result of blind natural Darwinian evolution.

And how do some of these accidental mutations arise in the first place? Could they be the result of toxins or the problem with defenses stemming from insignifigant nutrition?

You are probably not seeing this the way I am seeing this. Look at a amino acid code table. In order to acheive a specific effect that is beneficial to the organism, you must have specific changes at specific places within long strings of codes. How many generations does it take a self replicating cell to acheive this with a few random mutations? Can't random mutations occur anywhere in the genome?

We learned that Darwinian conjecture doesn't always explain things. Rather it seems to mislead us or even delude us. (See message #390 in the Expelled thread in links & information.) Darwinian conjecture is a way of thinking but it doesn't seem to represent reality very well. At least it doesn't seem to do it for me.

I also sometimes get the impression there exists confusion of ID with Creationist thought. The science behind ID doesn't tell us what the intentions of the designer were. If the Japanese won WWII, we probably would have been worshiping the God of the Rising Sun.

Edited by traderdrew, : No reason given.

Edited by traderdrew, : No reason given.


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 Message 176 by Perdition, posted 08-24-2009 2:12 PM Perdition has responded

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 15578
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 179 of 458 (520863)
08-24-2009 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by traderdrew
08-24-2009 2:47 PM


Re: What is information?
quote:

That is a fairly good counterpoint. However, some of those problems are rather rare and of course the sickle cell is something that protects against a specific serious disease. I'm not saying the sickle cell was designed. I'm saying it is probably the result of blind natural Darwinian evolution.

Which is why it is relatively common. Where there is malaria selective pressure maintains the sickle-cell gene at a relatively high frequency. And there are other genetic disease that have similar effects.

quote:

You are probably not seeing this the way I am seeing this. Look at a amino acid code table. In order to acheive a specific effect that is beneficial to the organism, you must have specific changes at specific places within long strings of codes. How many generations does it take a self replicating cell to acheive this with a few random mutations? Can't random mutations occur anywhere in the genome?

Your problem here is that you are thinking in terms of how a designer would do it. A designer might look for a specific change, but evolution doesn't. Thinking in this way leads to the "hindsight" problem I referred to in the probability thread. A better question is what is the probability of hitting on a beneficial mutation.

quote:

We learned that Darwinian conjecture doesn't always explain things. Rather it seems to mislead us or even delude us. (See message #390 in the Expelled thread in links & information.) Darwinian conjecture is a way of thinking but it doesn't seem to represent reality very well. At least it doesn't seem to do it for me.

If you accept that Wounded King's suggestion is correct, then it would mean that a layman using "Darwinian conjecture" got closer to the truth than the ID "experts". That isn't bad going.

quote:

I also sometimes get the impression there exists confusion of ID with Creationist thought.

That isn't even possible. All the major creationist positions are accepted parts of ID. Including Young Earth Creationism. Creationist thought IS ID.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by traderdrew, posted 08-24-2009 2:47 PM traderdrew has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by traderdrew, posted 08-24-2009 4:05 PM PaulK has responded

  
traderdrew
Member (Idle past 3475 days)
Posts: 379
From: Palm Beach, Florida
Joined: 04-27-2009


Message 180 of 458 (520866)
08-24-2009 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by PaulK
08-24-2009 3:25 PM


Re: What is information?
Your problem here is that you are thinking in terms of how a designer would do it. A designer might look for a specific change, but evolution doesn't. Thinking in this way leads to the "hindsight" problem I referred to in the probability thread.

I'm not saying that a designer inserted/subsituted/deleted the mutations in many cases. Take the example of the nylonase enzyme example, the frameshift that resulted in the new enzyme didn't result in any stop codons along the way. In other words, the frameshift didn't inhibit the system from creating a new enzyme. This suggests the codon sequences were predesigned or evolved from Darwinian processes for new functions. (Two competing ways of looking at it.)

A better question is what is the probability of hitting on a beneficial mutation.

I agree. If you could prove that it can only be done (not, can it be done?) with Darwinian processes and not (NGE) natural genetic engineering, then it would shut me up.

If you accept that Wounded King's suggestion is correct, then it would mean that a layman using "Darwinian conjecture" got closer to the truth than the ID "experts". That isn't bad going.

I don't remember that being the case. It is a matter of perspective I guess.

That isn't even possible. All the major creationist positions are accepted parts of ID. Including Young Earth Creationism. Creationist thought IS ID.

Once again, that is a matter of perspective and you're entitled to it. I believe in evolution. I just don't believe a totally blind process is behind it.


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 Message 179 by PaulK, posted 08-24-2009 3:25 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
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