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Author Topic:   Are all Mutations harmful because creatures were designed?
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6475 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 2 of 39 (57425)
09-24-2003 4:23 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by DC85
09-23-2003 11:17 PM


I think they say it because 1. it makes them feel like they know something about genetics when they don't 2. they think it somehow disproves evolution so it has to be repeated as often as possible since every good creationist knows if you repeat something that is wrong often enough it becomes a fact 3. Despite being contradicted by the actual evidence, it appeals to their concept of poof bang creation ex nihilo of fully formed organisms which then proceed to degrade because of the fall.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by DC85, posted 09-23-2003 11:17 PM DC85 has not replied

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6475 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 5 of 39 (57684)
09-25-2003 4:08 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Fred Williams
09-24-2003 2:37 PM


If there were dog kinds and every allele/mutation that were novel was harmful then rather than being able to breed new dog breeds one should only get spontaneous abortion since all change is harmful...same with novle plant species that arise by hybridization, or cichlids...if everything is purely degenerate why is there increase in diversity?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Fred Williams, posted 09-24-2003 2:37 PM Fred Williams has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Fred Williams, posted 09-25-2003 8:46 PM Mammuthus has replied

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6475 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 8 of 39 (57934)
09-26-2003 4:09 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Fred Williams
09-25-2003 8:46 PM


Re: Strawman
quote:
Mammuthus, I never said all change is harmful. I said random change (specifically copy mistakes in the DNA) is virtually always harmful to some degree (from slightly to lethal).
Acutally, most random mutation is neutral or slightly deleterious. Then come the harmful and lethal mutations followed by beneficial mutations in terms of incidence. To complicate matters some mutations are beneficial when present as heterozygous...to complicate it further there are epistatsis effects....so such a black and white assessment does an injustice to the over 100 years of genetics research that has been done...even my listing is only the tip of the iceberg
quote:
Most new dog breeds have lost genetic information from their parent breed. It's man-made bottlenecking, which will have this effect. I thought you knew that.
How have dog breeds "lost" genetic information? The only decrease is at the population level i.e. a bottleneck reduces variation among individuals. A chihuahua has just as many base pairs in its genome as a wolf...given the reduction in wolf populations due to overhunting I would not be surprised if your average group of mutts has more genetic variation than their "parent kind"...I guess they are accumulating genetic information....ooops there goes creationism...poof bang!
quote:
I have to run. Let me add that some portion of the variation may be due to non-random mutations, such as transosons. I was reading something recently that most genes seem to have areas available to tranposon mutation.
Actually they are called transposons and are proviral like sequences that code for viral genes like gag, pol, and env. The parts of genes they typically insert into are the same as exogenous viruses i.e. areas that are transcriptionally active where strand breaks occur and the transposons can integrate via retrotransposition....they are a marvelous example of evolution and are extremely useful in reconstructing phylogenies particularly SINEs.
quote:
THis fits quite well within a creation model.
What creation model would that be...the I don't know what a transposon is so therefore goddidit?..lots of things are apparently consistent with this "model"
quote:
Evolution on the other hand has a difficult time accounting for them (as evolution does for everything, like convergence!).
Funny that if we have so much trouble accounting for transposons that even I have published a paper on the evolution of retroelements...yeah a real problem for evolution...tell it to these guys to..
1: Vershinin AV, Allnutt TR, Knox MR, Ambrose MJ, Ellis TH. Related Articles, Links
Transposable Elements Reveal the Impact of Introgression, Rather than Transposition, in Pisum Diversity, Evolution and Domestication.
Mol Biol Evol. 2003 Aug 29 [Epub ahead of print]
PMID: 12949152 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]
2: Fedorova L, Fedorov A. Related Articles, Links
Introns in gene evolution.
Genetica. 2003 Jul;118(2-3):123-31. Review.
PMID: 12868603 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
3: Fischer SE, Wienholds E, Plasterk RH. Related Articles, Links
Continuous Exchange of Sequence Information Between Dispersed Tc1 Transposons in the Caenorhabditis elegans Genome.
Genetics. 2003 May;164(1):127-34.
PMID: 12750326 [PubMed - in process]
4: Neafsey DE, Palumbi SR. Related Articles, Links
Genome size evolution in pufferfish: a comparative analysis of diodontid and tetraodontid pufferfish genomes.
Genome Res. 2003 May;13(5):821-30.
PMID: 12727902 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
5: Casals F, Caceres M, Ruiz A. Related Articles, Links
The Foldback-like Transposon Galileo Is Involved in the Generation of Two Different Natural Chromosomal Inversions of Drosophila buzzatii.
Mol Biol Evol. 2003 May;20(5):674-85. Epub 2003 Apr 02.
PMID: 12679549 [PubMed - in process]
6: Bhattacharya S, Bakre A, Bhattacharya A. Related Articles, Links
Mobile genetic elements in protozoan parasites.
J Genet. 2002 Aug;81(2):73-86. Review.
PMID: 12532039 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
7: Wostemeyer J, Kreibich A. Related Articles, Links
Repetitive DNA elements in fungi (Mycota): impact on genomic architecture and evolution.
Curr Genet. 2002 Jul;41(4):189-98. Epub 2002 Jun 21. Review.
or how about this one
J Gen Virol. 1996 Aug;77 ( Pt 8):1631-41. Related Articles, Links
The structure and phylogeny of a new family of human endogenous retroviruses.
Widegren B, Kjellman C, Aminoff S, Sahlford LG, Sjogren HO.
Department of Tumor Immunology, Wallenberg Laboratory, Solvegatan, Lund, Sweden. Bengt.Widegren@wblab.lu.se
A novel endogenous retrovirus (ERV) designated XA34 was isolated from a human glioma cDNA library using low stringency hybridization with an ERV-9 env probe. Southern blot hybridizations with human genomic DNA revealed the presence of approximately 16 genomic copies closely related to XA34. Sequencing of a 2303 bp cDNA clone of XA34 showed that it belongs to a new ERV family. The XA34 ERV has recombined with an ERV-9-like retrovirus resulting in a truncated ERV-9-like env region that ends with an Alul-like 3' LTR. By using PCR, we isolated approximately 940 bp pol fragments from three additional members of this family, XA35, XA36 and XA37. A fifth member, XA38, was isolated and sequenced as a 4729 bp genomic clone. The genomic XA38 clone spans from pol towards the 3' flanking region. The XA38 virus contains a more cryptic env region. The XA38 env is truncated in the transmembrane region and the virus then ends with three Alu repeats. Southern blot studies with human, chimpanzee, orangutan and squirrel monkey DNA show the presence of the XA34 family in all these species. That both the New and Old World monkeys have this ERV family means that the integration and/or amplification in the primate germ-line of XA34 probably took place about 40-45 million years ago. The phylogeny and the closet relatives to ERV XA34 are discussed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Fred Williams, posted 09-25-2003 8:46 PM Fred Williams has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Rei, posted 09-26-2003 1:07 PM Mammuthus has not replied
 Message 10 by Fred Williams, posted 09-26-2003 2:22 PM Mammuthus has not replied

  
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