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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 16 of 22 (400894)
05-17-2007 9:16 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Parasomnium
05-17-2007 4:44 AM


I think, Crashfrog, you're doing Ogon an injustice by taking his obviously metaphorical description of evolutionary development literal and correcting it as such.
When he understands the plain facts of evolution, then he can have his Poetic License back. But metaphor does nothing to promote understanding until all parties understand the basis behind the metaphor.
The idea that species, not individuals, evolve is not immediately obvious to people. A lot of people think that evolution describes a process where a single individual mutates from fish to lizard to hominid. Until we've cleared away those potential misunderstandings I think metaphoric language is something best avoided. Otherwise it just gets in the way.
I think Ogon is asking legitimate questions and deserves appropriate answers (although maybe not in this particular thread), instead of barely concealed contempt.
I don't have any contempt to conceal. But we need to ensure that conversations with people who are neophytes - who are literally coming from a basis of total ignorance about evolution - proceed from a basis of as little misunderstanding as possible, and an understanding of evolution as the history of how we were all born as fishes is something that doesn't lend itself to clarity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Parasomnium, posted 05-17-2007 4:44 AM Parasomnium has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Parasomnium, posted 05-17-2007 3:28 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
ogon
Member (Idle past 6129 days)
Posts: 70
Joined: 05-13-2007


Message 17 of 22 (400953)
05-17-2007 2:41 PM


Yikes! In my defence I can only say that CREATION VERSUS EVOLUTION is such a large subject that I find a specific place to start discussing it and understanding it almost impossible!
I would like to think at 50 years old, a teacher (okay not a science teacher!) and resonably intelligent I have a basic grasp of what both CREATION and EVOLUTION imply.
Hey, lesson learnt though. I WILL try and think of a specific scientific question and post it. And hopefully you guys will attempt to answer it.
ogon

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by crashfrog, posted 05-17-2007 4:37 PM ogon has replied
 Message 21 by NosyNed, posted 05-17-2007 6:27 PM ogon has replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 18 of 22 (400966)
05-17-2007 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by crashfrog
05-17-2007 9:16 AM


Valid point
crashfrog writes:
But metaphor does nothing to promote understanding until all parties understand the basis behind the metaphor.
That's a valid point...
A lot of people think that evolution describes a process where a single individual mutates from fish to lizard to hominid.
... and that is true too, but I don't think Ogon is one of those people.
We'd better leave it at that, before one of the admins starts admonishing us. I see that Ogon has also responded, so let's wait and see where he turns up next.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by crashfrog, posted 05-17-2007 9:16 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 19 of 22 (400975)
05-17-2007 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by ogon
05-17-2007 2:41 PM


I would like to think at 50 years old, a teacher (okay not a science teacher!) and resonably intelligent I have a basic grasp of what both CREATION and EVOLUTION imply.
I don't mean to disparage your intellect, and I'm sure that you're plenty bright and perceptive.
Biology is a technical field. A lot of really groundbreaking developments have happened in the past decade, mostly thanks to a proliferation of cheap genetic analysis tools, and keeping up with that stuff takes more than a bright mind and an AARP card.
That's all I wanted to get across. Lest you get the wrong idea, I'm not a biologist myself (yet), just a dilettante, and I'm interested in whatever questions you might have. To help you, most people want to know things like:
1) Where do new species come from? What do we mean when we say "new species"?
2) How does the process of evolution cause organisms to evolve things like eyes or wings?
3) Is evolution something that proceeds towards a goal?
4) What does "survival of the fittest" mean? Does that mean I should shoot my fat neighbor?
and so on. If you want to know what you're supposed to do with your life, or something, that's not a question science is equipped to answer. If you want to know about the world of living things, that's what biological evolution was developed to explain.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by ogon, posted 05-17-2007 2:41 PM ogon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by ogon, posted 05-17-2007 4:51 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
ogon
Member (Idle past 6129 days)
Posts: 70
Joined: 05-13-2007


Message 20 of 22 (400979)
05-17-2007 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by crashfrog
05-17-2007 4:37 PM


I have actually posted a similar question to those you have mentioned, so hopefully it will pop up somewhere on the forum.
Thanks for switching my light bulb on guys. Hopefully I'll prove a worthy student.
ogon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by crashfrog, posted 05-17-2007 4:37 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 21 of 22 (400996)
05-17-2007 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by ogon
05-17-2007 2:41 PM


Whittling a big subject down to size.
Your right that the "creation vs evolution" controversy is a big subject. But it is my opinion that it can be pared down to size with some specfific steps.
1. Time frame.
There are those who think that the time available is 1,000,000 times less than others think. This is kinda a big descrepancy, no? That needs to be settled first.
2. What evidence is there for one or the other?
Part of (but by no means the major part) the evidence for evolution is the history of life on the planet. The geology and the fossils embedded in it is important. One side attempts to explain this with a recent, global flood. It is necessary to get past that before carrying on.
3. What exactly does each side say?
The creationists are all over the map. Each individual seems to have their own idiosyncratic take on it. (In fact, if you can hold them still long enough to keep talking about it they often have multiple contradictory views.) You need to nail that down.
Then you need to get a basic understanding of what the theory of evolution actually is. You seem to be working on this now. I'll get to that in a subsequent post. (btw, disclaimer -- I'm not a biologist either ).
4. Make Inferences.
Once you understand the evidence and what both sides are saying you have to test the suggestions against the evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by ogon, posted 05-17-2007 2:41 PM ogon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by ogon, posted 05-18-2007 4:07 AM NosyNed has not replied

  
ogon
Member (Idle past 6129 days)
Posts: 70
Joined: 05-13-2007


Message 22 of 22 (401060)
05-18-2007 4:07 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by NosyNed
05-17-2007 6:27 PM


Re: Whittling a big subject down to size.
I am now in Biologigal Evolution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by NosyNed, posted 05-17-2007 6:27 PM NosyNed has not replied

  
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