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Author
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Topic: Peppered Moths and Natural Selection
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1363 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 18 of 350 (261659)
11-20-2005 9:03 PM
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Reply to: Message 17 by randman
11-20-2005 8:51 PM
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Re: If it is natural selection, what is false about protraying it as natural selectio
RAZD, I am sorry but if at this point you cannot concede, yoy are beyond reason. quote:
There are plenty of other groups that have similar attitudes to your's. They think none of their critics are reasonable. They all don't listen, etc,....I've seen it a lot, and it's evidence not that all the critics are wrong, but the insular group mentality is causing a problem with the individuals in the group. Imo, that's what is occurring with you here.
The study has no relevance at all because it was not conducted relative to moths principal predators, nor do we know if industrial pollutants are the deciding factor because there are myriad other factors involved, and there is no reason to trust the methodologies involved either considering the error-ridden aspects of the study. you were asked a direct question. were there more light colored moths before the industrial revolution? yes or no. were there more dark colored moths after the industrial revolution? yes or no. all of these other factors don't have a damned thing to do with anything. whether or not bird eat them, how birds see, whether or not bats eat them... none of it is important. was dark-color selected for? yes or no.
אָרַח
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 17 by randman, posted 11-20-2005 8:51 PM | | randman has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 24 by randman, posted 11-20-2005 9:24 PM | | arachnophilia has replied |
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1363 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 22 of 350 (261664)
11-20-2005 9:20 PM
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Reply to: Message 21 by randman
11-20-2005 9:17 PM
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evolution 101
And of course, natural selection is neither here nor there since this is presented as evidence for evolution, not just natural selection. quote:
Main Entry: straw man
Function: noun
1 : a weak or imaginary opposition (as an argument or adversary) set up only to be easily confuted
In fact, trying to pass off natural selection as some sort of magical thing to create evolution is inherently dishonest, imo. the full title of darwin's book is "On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life." This message has been edited by arachnophilia, 11-20-2005 09:21 PM
אָרַח
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 21 by randman, posted 11-20-2005 9:17 PM | | randman has not replied |
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1363 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 27 of 350 (261669)
11-20-2005 9:34 PM
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Reply to: Message 24 by randman
11-20-2005 9:24 PM
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Re: If it is natural selection, what is false about protraying it as natural selectio
Your snide tone is to be expected my snide tone? those were your words. it's not my fault you're inconsistent. and turnabout IS fairplay.
I realize you and others in your simplicity, think the fact something occurs during a particular period establishes causality, but that's not a scientific approach. this is the problem. i didn't ask you about causality, did i? i asked you about correlation. were there more light colored moths before the i.r.? were there more dark colored moths after? yes. or. no.
אָרַח
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 24 by randman, posted 11-20-2005 9:24 PM | | randman has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 29 by randman, posted 11-20-2005 9:43 PM | | arachnophilia has replied |
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1363 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 30 of 350 (261672)
11-20-2005 9:43 PM
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Reply to: Message 28 by randman
11-20-2005 9:39 PM
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Re: If it is natural selection, what is false about protraying it as natural selectio
Natural selection always occurs. It's part of reproduction, but that means very little as far as claiming this as evidence for evolution. No speciation occured. evolution > speciation. evolution = speciation + natural selection + some other factors. evidence that natural selection occurs is evidence for part of evolution. like i said about, the word's "natural selection" were in the title of darwin's book -- it's the method he proposed for speciation. since natural selection was a predicted result of the hypothesis, evidence towards the validity of the theory. darwin said it would happen, it did.
אָרַח
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 28 by randman, posted 11-20-2005 9:39 PM | | randman has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 32 by randman, posted 11-20-2005 9:46 PM | | arachnophilia has replied |
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1363 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 31 of 350 (261673)
11-20-2005 9:45 PM
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Reply to: Message 29 by randman
11-20-2005 9:43 PM
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Re: If it is natural selection, what is false about protraying it as natural selectio
The were reported more darker moths emerging during the Industrial revolution, sure. But that is coorelation not causality, which is the subject of this thread. we haven't gotten to causality yet. actually, we're not going to get to causality. you already agree that natural selection occurs all the time. is this an example of natural selection? yes or no.
אָרַח
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 29 by randman, posted 11-20-2005 9:43 PM | | randman has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 33 by randman, posted 11-20-2005 9:48 PM | | arachnophilia has replied |
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1363 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 34 of 350 (261676)
11-20-2005 9:52 PM
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Reply to: Message 32 by randman
11-20-2005 9:46 PM
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Re: If it is natural selection, what is false about protraying it as natural selectio
Peppered moths are presented as evidence for evolution, as an example of evolution occuring. That's a patently false claim because natural selection alone does not equal evolution in the sense of of the ToE being true. Moreover, the claims are overstated, but passing off overstatements as facts is par for the course for evolutionists. natural selection was part of darwin's predicted result: it was the machanism he proposed. do you agree that evidence that this mechanism is real is evidence in favor of evolution? yes or no?
אָרַח
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 32 by randman, posted 11-20-2005 9:46 PM | | randman has not replied |
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1363 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 35 of 350 (261678)
11-20-2005 9:53 PM
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Reply to: Message 33 by randman
11-20-2005 9:48 PM
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Re: If it is natural selection, what is false about protraying it as natural selectio
Not necessarily natural selection related to bird predation, no. i did not ask causation. is it an example of natural selection? yes or no.
אָרַח
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 33 by randman, posted 11-20-2005 9:48 PM | | randman has not replied |
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1363 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 39 of 350 (261687)
11-20-2005 10:33 PM
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Reply to: Message 38 by randman
11-20-2005 10:28 PM
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Re: ignorance is bliss for some evos
no.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 38 by randman, posted 11-20-2005 10:28 PM | | randman has not replied |
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1363 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 47 of 350 (261712)
11-20-2005 11:18 PM
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Reply to: Message 46 by randman
11-20-2005 11:13 PM
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Re: If it is natural selection, what is false about protraying it as natural selectio
randman, for someone who dodges questions as much as you do, you sure get your panties in a bunch when you think that people have avoided yours. (nevermind that four separate people replied to this post the FIRST time you posted it.)
אָרַח
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 46 by randman, posted 11-20-2005 11:13 PM | | randman has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 49 by randman, posted 11-20-2005 11:30 PM | | arachnophilia has replied | | | Message 81 by Admin, posted 11-21-2005 8:51 AM | | arachnophilia has replied |
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1363 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 48 of 350 (261713)
11-20-2005 11:18 PM
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I WIN!
*plants his flag, declares victory, and runs away*
אָרַח
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1363 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 50 of 350 (261719)
11-20-2005 11:40 PM
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Reply to: Message 49 by randman
11-20-2005 11:30 PM
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Re: If it is natural selection, what is false about protraying it as natural selectio
i already dodged that question before. weren't you paying attention?
אָרַח
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 49 by randman, posted 11-20-2005 11:30 PM | | randman has not replied |
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1363 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 57 of 350 (261737)
11-21-2005 12:49 AM
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Reply to: Message 56 by randman
11-21-2005 12:29 AM
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Re: my response, bad as it was the first time and worse for repetition.
You made claims that were not backed up. that op was one of the most backed up posts i've ever seen on this board. what do you want?
Pretty much, I would expect a full retraction and apology, did someone get their feelings hurt?
Take the bat issue. It's not up to me to figure out the role of bats and birds. it's been explain to you multiple times that it is a non-issue. color of prey has not effect on bats, because they do not hunt by vision. they would eat dark and light moths indescriminately.
אָרַח
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 56 by randman, posted 11-21-2005 12:29 AM | | randman has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 58 by randman, posted 11-21-2005 2:31 AM | | arachnophilia has replied |
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1363 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 59 of 350 (261778)
11-21-2005 2:41 AM
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Reply to: Message 58 by randman
11-21-2005 2:31 AM
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Re: my response, bad as it was the first time and worse for repetition.
And? You say the primary predator is of no consequence? How do you know that? do bats hunt based on vision? does a moth's color affect its likeyhood of being eaten? if they are an indescriminate killer, they're not influential on selection. period.
For example, maybe some bats preferred the lighter moths and could distinquish them by their flying patterns, or maybe they craved the melatin or whatever made the darker moths dark, and there was a reduction in the bat population and so the darker moths were not eaten as much by bats? maybe the invisible ninjas protect the dark colored moths because they are strongly political and believe in affirmitive actions. ad hoc. you have been asked to substantiate a claim that bats have a preference. maybe light and dark moths fly differently. maybe the bats can tell the difference. maybe they have a preference. maybe this makes a significant impact. how many maybe's is that? can you substantiate a single one of these claims? because maybe doesn't cut it.
How can you claim this is valid science without ruling out all the various potential causes? because, for the fifth time, i'm not talking about causation. This message has been edited by arachnophilia, 11-21-2005 02:44 AM
אָרַח
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 58 by randman, posted 11-21-2005 2:31 AM | | randman has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 60 by randman, posted 11-21-2005 3:06 AM | | arachnophilia has not replied |
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1363 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Re: Warning, un-constructive off-topic comment.
haha this is great.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 90 by Wounded King, posted 11-21-2005 10:58 AM | | Wounded King has not replied |
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1363 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 92 of 350 (261901)
11-21-2005 11:03 AM
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Reply to: Message 81 by Admin
11-21-2005 8:51 AM
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Re: Forum Guidelines Warning
sorry,  the irony was killing me.
אָרַח
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 81 by Admin, posted 11-21-2005 8:51 AM | | Admin has seen this message but not replied |
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