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Author Topic:   Peppered Moths and Natural Selection
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 721 days)
Posts: 3811
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 110 of 350 (262596)
11-22-2005 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by randman
11-22-2005 6:17 PM


Re: Dark Moths, White trees.
Far more than I ever really cared to know about peppered moths...

Rand, really, is this necessary?

this is a fantastical claim calling into question the professionalism and competence of evolutionists

Huge numbers of studies and reviews have been done on the peppered moth varieties, melanism, differential predation. Like most science, it wasn't done "right" (optimally) the first time, and even now the data, and their implications, remain unclear. As RAZD notes, even your DI source concedes the jury is still out, although you missed that part. I will note that the data on which the critique is based was also obtained by scientists--are they also fantastical and incompetent?

The scientific process of self-correction continues forever. The original fellow pinned moths to tree trunks because he thought it was good enough to yield data that would otherwise be difficult if not impossible to obtain.

So?

Both data collection and analysis are being sharpened.

So?

BTW, what makes you think that the upper branches of trees would be less polluted than trunks? Some birds work their way up with their head up, some work their way down with their head down, and some hang from branches and work all around them--but most of the activity is in the canopy. If the forest is polluted (as all the tiny remaining shreds of European forests are), the entire tree is polluted, not just the trunk. If anything, the moths on high branches are more intensely predated by birds, and camouflage even more crucial.

BTW, America no longer has "vast" forests, and their pitiful remnants are all grievously polluted.

I'd be more impresed by your insulting assessment of scientists making an authentic effort to learn the facts if there were some suggestion of fraud or incompetence. There is none.

There is, however, your continued insistence on offensive, inaccurate, unjustified denigration of the integrity of men and women who devote their lives to inching closer to truth. Do you refer to the early work by Benjamin Franklin on electricity that way? It was crude; most, if not all, of what he thought was wrong: was he "fantastical and incompetent"? Or was he merely taking a step forward so that others could step past him?

That kind of smearing language makes you sound like an ethically-challenged fanatic. If you have good arguments, just make them: gratuitous accusations of dishonesty and fraud are counterproductive and hurtful.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by randman, posted 11-22-2005 6:17 PM randman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by randman, posted 11-22-2005 11:12 PM Omnivorous has not yet responded

  
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 721 days)
Posts: 3811
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 131 of 350 (347400)
09-07-2006 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by skepticfaith
09-07-2006 9:39 PM


Re: How do I define a kind?
Certainly some species are classified as separate and yet they are so closely related - we can infer it is a kind, but there has to be some way of calibrating the kinds..

How about, oh, say, genus, or family?


God gave us the earth. We have dominion over the plants, the animals, the trees. God said, ‘Earth is yours. Take it. Rape it. It’s yours.’
--Ann Coulter, Fox-TV: Hannity & Colmes, 20 Jun 01

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by skepticfaith, posted 09-07-2006 9:39 PM skepticfaith has not yet responded

  
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 721 days)
Posts: 3811
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 184 of 350 (351702)
09-23-2006 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by tuned2g
09-23-2006 10:08 PM


Re: yes or no?
The fly--or moth--in the ointment of your reply is that new genes do, indeed, arise: we call that process mutation.

Should a mutation create a gene which enables the moth to adopt, chameleon-like, the color pattern of its background, it would live long and prosper no matter what rapid changes occur in its chromatic environment.

Genes mutate. Stir in the natural selection that you have already granted exists, and the sky is the limit. Evolution is every bit as "proven" as natural selection.


God gave us the earth. We have dominion over the plants, the animals, the trees. God said, ‘Earth is yours. Take it. Rape it. It’s yours.’
--Ann Coulter, Fox-TV: Hannity & Colmes, 20 Jun 01

Save lives! Click here!
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC!
---------------------------------------


This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by tuned2g, posted 09-23-2006 10:08 PM tuned2g has not yet responded

  
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