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Author Topic:   How do you define the word Evolution?
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 751 of 936 (811378)
06-07-2017 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 741 by CRR
06-06-2017 5:09 PM


CRR writes:
Why? Because you would have done it that way? I won't reduce God to your level, or mine.
My way is MORE than what you say your Designer would do. How is that "reducing" God?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 741 by CRR, posted 06-06-2017 5:09 PM CRR has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 752 of 936 (811380)
06-07-2017 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 735 by CRR
06-05-2017 8:17 PM


Re: God rested
As Sarfati says in "the Genesis Account", p283,
Sarfati is the man who will swear to anything. If you've got another source, let me know.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Not really, it is a theory that is imposed on nature so consistently that you think you are observing it. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 735 by CRR, posted 06-05-2017 8:17 PM CRR has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 753 of 936 (811382)
06-07-2017 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 714 by CRR
05-27-2017 11:43 PM


Re: the word Evolution?
CRR writes:
Taq, as I have shown in other posts there ARE criteria for identifying the bounds of the Kinds.
Those criteria were immediately thrown out when it was said that there could be a lack of interfertility between species within a kind.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 714 by CRR, posted 05-27-2017 11:43 PM CRR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 756 by CRR, posted 06-08-2017 6:40 PM Taq has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 754 of 936 (811383)
06-07-2017 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 743 by Dredge
06-07-2017 3:21 AM


Dredge writes:
Which is the more sensible approach? ... invent a different system for each one of the millions of species of organisms on earth, or use the same system for each one?
The more sensible approach for a designer with limited means is to copycat. But for a GOD, why would He limit Himself? Why not use His imagination?
Dredge writes:
But on the other hand, humans have a long history of borrowing ideas from nature to build stuff. Would humans have ever thought of flight if they hadn't seen birds doing it?
Maybe you can answer my question about the biological zeppelins. What idea did we borrow from nature there?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 743 by Dredge, posted 06-07-2017 3:21 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 758 by Dredge, posted 06-09-2017 4:28 AM ringo has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 755 of 936 (811384)
06-07-2017 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 743 by Dredge
06-07-2017 3:21 AM


Dredge writes:
Which is the more sensible approach? ... invent a different system for each one of the millions of species of organisms on earth, or use the same system for each one?
For a being who is all knowing, all powerful, and who lives outside of time and space, the most sensible approach is to start from scratch each time. The only reason why reusing systems makes sense is to save time and resources, both of which this supposed designer had an infinite supply of.
Also, why limit yourself to a nested hierarchy? If you can make species that are half reptile and half mammal, why not half mammal and half bird, or half ape and half dog? Why is it that the only mixture of characteristics we see are those that evolution would produce, and not the millions of different combinations a designer could make.
Human designers aren't limited to a nested hierarchy. Things like cars, buildings, paintings, and pottery don't fall into a nested hierarchy. I am not aware of any single designer who was limited to a nested hierarchy, so why do we see a nested hierarchy if design is true? It makes no sense why we would only see the pattern of shared features that evolution would create if design were true.
But on the other hand, humans have a long history of borrowing ideas from nature to build stuff. Would humans have ever thought of flight if they hadn't seen birds doing it?
Airplanes don't fall into a nested hierarchy. Birds do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 743 by Dredge, posted 06-07-2017 3:21 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 759 by Dredge, posted 06-09-2017 4:39 AM Taq has replied

  
CRR
Member (Idle past 2264 days)
Posts: 579
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016


Message 756 of 936 (811488)
06-08-2017 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 753 by Taq
06-07-2017 3:10 PM


Re: the word Evolution?
CRR writes:
Taq, as I have shown in other posts there ARE criteria for identifying the bounds of the Kinds.
Those criteria were immediately thrown out when it was said that there could be a lack of interfertility between species within a kind.
Not at all. Within the cats not every species can successfully breed with all the other species, but the chain of hybrids indicates that all are part of the one kind. Hybridisation is not the only criteria for identifying the bounds of the Kinds. I can give you some links to the subject if you're willing to read them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 753 by Taq, posted 06-07-2017 3:10 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 763 by Taq, posted 06-09-2017 11:37 AM CRR has not replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 757 of 936 (811530)
06-09-2017 4:25 AM
Reply to: Message 747 by Tangle
06-07-2017 5:35 AM


Tangle writes:
This is both bad science and bad logic.
If there is no connection between 1 and 2, then in effect, you are saying evolution is not evidence of evolution. Now that really does sound like both bad science and bad logic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 747 by Tangle, posted 06-07-2017 5:35 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 760 by Tangle, posted 06-09-2017 4:50 AM Dredge has replied
 Message 765 by Taq, posted 06-09-2017 11:41 AM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 758 of 936 (811531)
06-09-2017 4:28 AM
Reply to: Message 754 by ringo
06-07-2017 3:11 PM


Ringo writes:
zepplins
Flight - the idea for which came from birds.
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 754 by ringo, posted 06-07-2017 3:11 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 766 by ringo, posted 06-09-2017 11:49 AM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 759 of 936 (811532)
06-09-2017 4:39 AM
Reply to: Message 755 by Taq
06-07-2017 3:18 PM


Taq writes:
why limit yourself to a nested hierarchy?
Asking why the Creator created according to nested hierarchies is as pointless as asking why the Creator made the sky blue and grass green ... or why he created apes that share 98% of their DNA with humans.
But if you really need to know, ask him when you met him face to face.
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 755 by Taq, posted 06-07-2017 3:18 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 764 by Taq, posted 06-09-2017 11:38 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9504
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 760 of 936 (811533)
06-09-2017 4:50 AM
Reply to: Message 757 by Dredge
06-09-2017 4:25 AM


Dredge writes:
If there is no connection between 1 and 2, then in effect, you are saying evolution is not evidence of evolution. Now that really does sound like both bad science and bad logic.
Of course there's a connection between the two, but you're going out of your way to misunderstand what it is.
How old is the earth? Why are you ignoring this question?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 757 by Dredge, posted 06-09-2017 4:25 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 761 by Dredge, posted 06-09-2017 5:46 AM Tangle has replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 761 of 936 (811536)
06-09-2017 5:46 AM
Reply to: Message 760 by Tangle
06-09-2017 4:50 AM


Tangle writes:
Of course there is a connection between the two
You've gone from calling it "bad science and bad logic" to now admitting there is a connection. Interesting.
How old is the earth?
I believe I've already answered this question, but to reiterate:
Somewhere betweem 5778 years and a very long time indeed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 760 by Tangle, posted 06-09-2017 4:50 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 762 by Tangle, posted 06-09-2017 6:04 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9504
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 762 of 936 (811537)
06-09-2017 6:04 AM
Reply to: Message 761 by Dredge
06-09-2017 5:46 AM


Dredge writes:
You've gone from calling it "bad science and bad logic" to now admitting there is a connection. Interesting.
If you remove your default defensive 'nothing shall pass' position and re-read what I said, you might understand the point. At the moment you've got all power committed to your biblical shields.
Somewhere betweem 5778 years and a very long time indeed.
Well that explains a lot, you're actually a closet YEC. That's the equivalent of a flat earther.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 761 by Dredge, posted 06-09-2017 5:46 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 763 of 936 (811590)
06-09-2017 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 756 by CRR
06-08-2017 6:40 PM


Re: the word Evolution?
CRR writes:
Within the cats not every species can successfully breed with all the other species, but the chain of hybrids indicates that all are part of the one kind.
If links in that chain go extinct, would it produce cat species that can no longer interbreed with other cat species?
Hybridisation is not the only criteria for identifying the bounds of the Kinds. I can give you some links to the subject if you're willing to read them.
I would prefer that you discuss them in your own words. I would be most interested in the genetics of determining "created kinds".
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 756 by CRR, posted 06-08-2017 6:40 PM CRR has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 764 of 936 (811591)
06-09-2017 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 759 by Dredge
06-09-2017 4:39 AM


Dredge writes:
Asking why the Creator created according to nested hierarchies is as pointless as asking why the Creator made the sky blue and grass green ... or why he created apes that share 98% of their DNA with humans.
That leaves evolution as the only explanation for why we see a nested hierarchy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 759 by Dredge, posted 06-09-2017 4:39 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 765 of 936 (811593)
06-09-2017 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 757 by Dredge
06-09-2017 4:25 AM


Dredge writes:
If there is no connection between 1 and 2, then in effect, you are saying evolution is not evidence of evolution. Now that really does sound like both bad science and bad logic.
Observing species evolving now is not direct evidence that species evolved in the past. That should be obvious. What you need is evidence of natural selection that occurred in the past, and that evidence exists in the field of comparative genomics. When you compare genomes between species you can test for the signal of natural selection in their genomes in the form of Ka/Ks ratios, conservation of sequence, and phylogenetic signals. You know, stuff you have admitted you don't understand.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 757 by Dredge, posted 06-09-2017 4:25 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 769 by Dredge, posted 06-11-2017 5:08 AM Taq has replied

  
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