|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total) |
| |
popoi | |
Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0 |
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: The Definition and Description of a "Transitional" | |||||||||||||||||||||||
NosyNed Member Posts: 8996 From: Canada Joined: |
The issue of transitional fossils comes up in many places in discussions here. One side says there are none and the other makes lists of them.
What I haven't seen from the literalist "creationist" side is a definition of what a transitional is. What do they expect them to look like? How would we know when we have one? I would expect a literalist to supply a pair of "kinds" and the describe what they think a "transitional" between them would be. Note: This thread is NOT for science types to show examples of transitionals or for literalists to debunk any given transitional. It is only to clarify what is meant my this. The science types may supply their own definitions. I expect there will be a goodly amount of congruence in those definitions. We need many definitions from the non-science camp since I will guess that there are a lot of them (one per person? ). This message has been edited by NosyNed, 07-22-2004 05:08 PM
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
NosyNed Member Posts: 8996 From: Canada Joined: |
The OT asks for the "things" that the transitional is between. You failed to supply that.
You also gave an example but not a definition? Why is that an example of whatever the heck you define "transitional" as?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
NosyNed Member Posts: 8996 From: Canada Joined: |
Funny, we had some bringing up transitionals who now seem to have forgotten how to define them.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
NosyNed Member Posts: 8996 From: Canada Joined: |
Don't those characteristics need to be "defining" characteristics of the taxa? So things that lots have in common don't count?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
NosyNed Member Posts: 8996 From: Canada Joined: |
We seem to be getting there. I'll take it on myself to bump this at any literalists who use the work "transitional".
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
NosyNed Member Posts: 8996 From: Canada Joined: |
For example for sure there was no intermediate kind between a tree kangaroo and a kangaroo. What does that mean? Does it mean that all kangaroos are the same kind so of course, there can be none between. Or does it mean that they are separate kinds and there would have to be a transitional which you don't think exists. In that case you still haven't said what that transitional would look like.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
NosyNed Member Posts: 8996 From: Canada Joined: |
Jeafl, perhaps you could add your definition for a transitional here.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
NosyNed Member Posts: 8996 From: Canada Joined: |
Robert found it inconventient to support his claims. When confined to Boot Camp to get a chance to understand how to he left. Not a huge loss but unfortunate for him.
In the meantime, I think the important point is to arrive at as good a definition of transitional as possible. Otherwise the discussion goes no where. It seems that Jeafl is another poster who doesn't like being expected to support his claims. So we'll leave this thread until someone else comes bombing in with the "no transitionals" claim. They won't know one if they trip over it either mind you.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
NosyNed Member Posts: 8996 From: Canada Joined: |
LOL, but what?
I don't even understand the simpler description.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
NosyNed Member Posts: 8996 From: Canada Joined: |
It doesn't matter what Mark says. It may well be that taxonimists don't use feathers as a characteristic of birds (though I would be surprised). It is what is used by those who have done the defining that we need to see a source for.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
NosyNed Member Posts: 8996 From: Canada Joined: |
oh, I almost have it now.
Let me try? We have to separated higher taxa (today). For example, reptiles and mammals. (A and B). A transitional (A/B -- a reptimammal) would have a specific characteristic that we now associate only with A (reptiles) AND some other specific characteristic that we now associate only with B (mammals). I think this has already been put forward upthread.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
NosyNed Member Posts: 8996 From: Canada Joined: |
We'll have to start finding pictures.
It is not always easy to find good ones.dinosaur to bird Geoscience Research Institute | I think we need more research on that... for a poor one of archeopterix (and some description of how they are transitional (it is not just feathers). I'll add others by edit.Reptile to Mammal http://www.mathematical.com/dinodviniaprima.html this whole site has many pictures of the fossils. Not all of them are reptile to mammal transitions, some are reptile to dinosaur. Others are not what we think of as transitionals with our current taxa bias. This sitehttp://rainbow.ldeo.columbia.edu/courses/v1001/9.html supplies a discussion of the times and give drawings and names. If you google the names you will find pictures of the original fossils for some. The only problem I can see you having with the drawings is that you think someone is making them up. They are done very carefully indeed from the fossils to allow them to be shown clearly. Something that is difficult if you don't have the actual fossil in front of you for some of them. This message has been edited by NosyNed, 11-30-2004 12:01 AM This message has been edited by NosyNed, 11-30-2004 12:02 AM
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
NosyNed Member Posts: 8996 From: Canada Joined: |
Please explain that more fully?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
NosyNed Member Posts: 8996 From: Canada Joined: |
We have some threads on "information" in the ID forum I think.
I suggest that you not bring up the concept unless you are prepared to deal with it. Starting with an operational definition. That can be done in the appropriate threads. It seems that everytime someone brings it up it is because they have read some creationist material and not really understood it. You have more of a background than many so you may have a chance of understanding it but there is no hint so far that you do.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
NosyNed Member Posts: 8996 From: Canada Joined: |
Jazz, the question still stands:
What do you think a transitional would look like? It is very hard to sort this out until you have a reasonable idea of that. You wouldn't make the mistake you did if you had that sorted out.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024