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Author Topic:   The Definition and Description of a "Transitional"
NosyNed
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Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 1 of 110 (126739)
07-22-2004 6:08 PM


The issue of transitional fossils comes up in many places in discussions here. One side says there are none and the other makes lists of them.
What I haven't seen from the literalist "creationist" side is a definition of what a transitional is. What do they expect them to look like? How would we know when we have one?
I would expect a literalist to supply a pair of "kinds" and the describe what they think a "transitional" between them would be.
Note: This thread is NOT for science types to show examples of transitionals or for literalists to debunk any given transitional. It is only to clarify what is meant my this.
The science types may supply their own definitions. I expect there will be a goodly amount of congruence in those definitions.
We need many definitions from the non-science camp since I will guess that there are a lot of them (one per person? ).
This message has been edited by NosyNed, 07-22-2004 05:08 PM

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 4 of 110 (126761)
07-22-2004 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by coffee_addict
07-22-2004 6:20 PM


Between what?
The OT asks for the "things" that the transitional is between. You failed to supply that.
You also gave an example but not a definition? Why is that an example of whatever the heck you define "transitional" as?

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 5 of 110 (126953)
07-23-2004 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by NosyNed
07-22-2004 7:16 PM


Bump
Funny, we had some bringing up transitionals who now seem to have forgotten how to define them.

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NosyNed
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Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 7 of 110 (126962)
07-23-2004 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by mark24
07-23-2004 11:30 AM


More?
Don't those characteristics need to be "defining" characteristics of the taxa? So things that lots have in common don't count?

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NosyNed
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Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 11 of 110 (127019)
07-23-2004 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Loudmouth
07-23-2004 1:38 PM


A defintion, I think
We seem to be getting there. I'll take it on myself to bump this at any literalists who use the work "transitional".

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NosyNed
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Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 19 of 110 (127909)
07-26-2004 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Robert Byers
07-26-2004 3:11 PM


kangaroo kind?
For example for sure there was no intermediate kind between a tree kangaroo and a kangaroo.
What does that mean? Does it mean that all kangaroos are the same kind so of course, there can be none between.
Or does it mean that they are separate kinds and there would have to be a transitional which you don't think exists. In that case you still haven't said what that transitional would look like.

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NosyNed
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Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 20 of 110 (163675)
11-28-2004 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by NosyNed
07-26-2004 7:14 PM


Bump for Jeafl
Jeafl, perhaps you could add your definition for a transitional here.

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NosyNed
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Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 22 of 110 (163780)
11-29-2004 12:33 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Darwin Redux
11-29-2004 12:29 AM


Long Gone
Robert found it inconventient to support his claims. When confined to Boot Camp to get a chance to understand how to he left. Not a huge loss but unfortunate for him.
In the meantime, I think the important point is to arrive at as good a definition of transitional as possible. Otherwise the discussion goes no where.
It seems that Jeafl is another poster who doesn't like being expected to support his claims. So we'll leave this thread until someone else comes bombing in with the "no transitionals" claim. They won't know one if they trip over it either mind you.

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NosyNed
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Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 24 of 110 (163873)
11-29-2004 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Darwin Redux
11-29-2004 3:36 AM


Onto something?
LOL, but what?
I don't even understand the simpler description.

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NosyNed
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Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 26 of 110 (164009)
11-29-2004 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by arachnophilia
11-29-2004 8:32 PM


Defining characteristics
It doesn't matter what Mark says. It may well be that taxonimists don't use feathers as a characteristic of birds (though I would be surprised). It is what is used by those who have done the defining that we need to see a source for.

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NosyNed
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Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 29 of 110 (164031)
11-29-2004 11:44 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Darwin Redux
11-29-2004 11:28 PM


Re: Onto something?
oh, I almost have it now.
Let me try?
We have to separated higher taxa (today). For example, reptiles and mammals. (A and B).
A transitional (A/B -- a reptimammal) would have a specific characteristic that we now associate only with A (reptiles) AND some other specific characteristic that we now associate only with B (mammals).
I think this has already been put forward upthread.

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 30 of 110 (164033)
11-29-2004 11:50 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Itachi Uchiha
11-29-2004 11:33 PM


A start
We'll have to start finding pictures.
It is not always easy to find good ones.
dinosaur to bird
Geoscience Research Institute | I think we need more research on that... for a poor one of archeopterix (and some description of how they are transitional (it is not just feathers).
I'll add others by edit.
Reptile to Mammal
http://www.mathematical.com/dinodviniaprima.html
this whole site has many pictures of the fossils. Not all of them are reptile to mammal transitions, some are reptile to dinosaur. Others are not what we think of as transitionals with our current taxa bias.
This site
http://rainbow.ldeo.columbia.edu/courses/v1001/9.html
supplies a discussion of the times and give drawings and names. If you google the names you will find pictures of the original fossils for some.
The only problem I can see you having with the drawings is that you think someone is making them up. They are done very carefully indeed from the fossils to allow them to be shown clearly. Something that is difficult if you don't have the actual fossil in front of you for some of them.
This message has been edited by NosyNed, 11-30-2004 12:01 AM
This message has been edited by NosyNed, 11-30-2004 12:02 AM

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 34 of 110 (164043)
11-30-2004 1:43 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Darwin Redux
11-30-2004 1:25 AM


Ancestral or derived
Please explain that more fully?

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 35 of 110 (164044)
11-30-2004 1:48 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Itachi Uchiha
11-29-2004 11:33 PM


Information
We have some threads on "information" in the ID forum I think.
I suggest that you not bring up the concept unless you are prepared to deal with it. Starting with an operational definition. That can be done in the appropriate threads.
It seems that everytime someone brings it up it is because they have read some creationist material and not really understood it. You have more of a background than many so you may have a chance of understanding it but there is no hint so far that you do.

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 58 of 110 (164869)
12-03-2004 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by JonF
12-03-2004 10:03 AM


Re: Trying to head back towards the topic...
Jazz, the question still stands:
What do you think a transitional would look like? It is very hard to sort this out until you have a reasonable idea of that.
You wouldn't make the mistake you did if you had that sorted out.

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