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Author Topic:   The Definition and Description of a "Transitional"
Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 5605 days)
Posts: 272
From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco
Joined: 06-21-2003


Message 46 of 110 (164223)
11-30-2004 11:04 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by NosyNed
11-30-2004 1:48 AM


Re: Information
NosyNed writes:
It seems that everytime someone brings it up it is because they have read some creationist material and not really understood it. You have more of a background than many so you may have a chance of understanding it but there is no hint so far that you do.
What I said in that reply was not influenced by anything that ive read or else I would of have cited it. Reread it and youll find that my response was based on the logic the author was using. I am not responsible of him contradicting himself.
Ok i Apologize. Information s not part of this thread so lets forget about it here.

Ponlo todo en las manos de Dios y que se joda el mundo. El principio de la sabiduria es el temor a Jehova

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by NosyNed, posted 11-30-2004 1:48 AM NosyNed has not replied

  
Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 5605 days)
Posts: 272
From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco
Joined: 06-21-2003


Message 47 of 110 (164225)
11-30-2004 11:16 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Loudmouth
11-30-2004 1:28 PM


Re: Question
Loudmouth writes:
Information has nothing to do with it. A transitional form displays characteristics of two different taxonomic categories, in this case fish and amphibians.
do you have any material I can read that deals with this. I would like to learn more on this.
Loudmouth writes:
If I show you the real fossil will you accept it as a transitional form?
Sure. If the evidence points that way I guess there would be nothing to argue about.

Ponlo todo en las manos de Dios y que se joda el mundo. El principio de la sabiduria es el temor a Jehova

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Loudmouth, posted 11-30-2004 1:28 PM Loudmouth has not replied

  
AdminJazzlover
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 110 (164226)
11-30-2004 11:24 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by coffee_addict
11-30-2004 2:15 PM


Re: Question
Lame writes:
Not very likely, based on his past behavior
It seems to me that everytime I read one of your posts (especially those directed towards me) you really have nothing to contribute on the issue. Just stay out of it if you do not have anything valuale to offer whether its against my position or not. This post is another piece of evidence that you are the one breaking the rules. You are making a claim on my behaviour but have no evidence to support it. Continue posting this way and youll be visiting the boot camp soon.

Yo soy BoriCua Pa Que tu lo Sepas

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by coffee_addict, posted 11-30-2004 2:15 PM coffee_addict has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by zephyr, posted 12-01-2004 3:07 AM AdminJazzlover has replied

  
Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 5605 days)
Posts: 272
From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco
Joined: 06-21-2003


Message 49 of 110 (164227)
11-30-2004 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by jar
11-30-2004 10:53 PM


Re: Trying to head back towards the topic...
jar writes:
First is a chimp different than a human?
take a look at the picture in your profile and compare it with a picture of yourself. Then answer the question. The picture is not a chimp but its a member of the family.

Ponlo todo en las manos de Dios y que se joda el mundo. El principio de la sabiduria es el temor a Jehova

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by jar, posted 11-30-2004 10:53 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by jar, posted 11-30-2004 11:32 PM Itachi Uchiha has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 50 of 110 (164228)
11-30-2004 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Itachi Uchiha
11-30-2004 11:28 PM


Re: Trying to head back towards the topic...
The avatar IS me. Bad hairday.
Well, I see a bipedal critter. Two hands on ends of upper arms. Five fingers on each hand. Eyes, ears, nose, mouth, all basically the same.
Is there some other difference?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Itachi Uchiha, posted 11-30-2004 11:28 PM Itachi Uchiha has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Itachi Uchiha, posted 11-30-2004 11:35 PM jar has replied

  
Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 5605 days)
Posts: 272
From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco
Joined: 06-21-2003


Message 51 of 110 (164229)
11-30-2004 11:35 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by jar
11-30-2004 11:32 PM


Re: Trying to head back towards the topic...
I haven't heard a chimp at the local zoo talk in english or spanish to me and I see no fur on my body. Oh wait! I found a similarity. We both like bananas

Ponlo todo en las manos de Dios y que se joda el mundo. El principio de la sabiduria es el temor a Jehova

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by jar, posted 11-30-2004 11:32 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by jar, posted 12-01-2004 12:04 AM Itachi Uchiha has replied
 Message 54 by arachnophilia, posted 12-01-2004 1:57 AM Itachi Uchiha has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 52 of 110 (164239)
12-01-2004 12:04 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Itachi Uchiha
11-30-2004 11:35 PM


Re: Trying to head back towards the topic...
Okay, let's look at the points you raised.
I haven't heard a chimp at the local zoo talk in english or spanish to me
But you haven't heard any humans speaking chimpanzee either. Also, how do you think language might show up in the fossil record?
and I see no fur on my body.
Look a little closer. Odds are you have as much hair on your body as a chimp. It is differnt in length and thickness but still there. Also, how do you think hair might show up in the fossil record?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Itachi Uchiha, posted 11-30-2004 11:35 PM Itachi Uchiha has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Itachi Uchiha, posted 12-03-2004 9:53 AM jar has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1334 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 53 of 110 (164251)
12-01-2004 1:55 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Itachi Uchiha
11-30-2004 10:53 PM


Re: Question
the ability to draw better than me or the ability of me playing a musical instrument better than you (just an example. i do not know if youre a musician)is developed by practice and not by code in our dna. Anyone of us (assuming no one is disabled) can play an instrument,draw or become an athlete with a little dedication and practice.
ok. how about this one. i like cold weather. so not only can i do well in, say a puerto rican environment, maybe i can do well in an alaskan one as well, where as you might not enjoy freezing your behind off. do i have more information than you?
and before you say that's not a genetic difference, it is: my family is all from northern countries. i'm willing to get i have much thicker body hair than you do, among other differences.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Itachi Uchiha, posted 11-30-2004 10:53 PM Itachi Uchiha has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Itachi Uchiha, posted 12-04-2004 11:51 AM arachnophilia has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1334 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 54 of 110 (164252)
12-01-2004 1:57 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Itachi Uchiha
11-30-2004 11:35 PM


Re: Trying to head back towards the topic...
I haven't heard a chimp at the local zoo talk in english or spanish to me
i used to be fluent in american sign language. i know of lots of chimps that use it to communicate.
[qs]and I see no fur on my body[qs] see my above post.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Itachi Uchiha, posted 11-30-2004 11:35 PM Itachi Uchiha has not replied

  
zephyr
Member (Idle past 4540 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 55 of 110 (164261)
12-01-2004 3:07 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by AdminJazzlover
11-30-2004 11:24 PM


Re: Question
quote:
Lame writes:
*snip*

I'm finding it very hard to believe that's an accident. What kind of admin are you anyway? Are they so desperate for creationist admins that they'll let just anyone in these days?
I thought the whole point of admins was to stay above the fray and ensure debaters play nice, not throw insults at those of whom they disapprove. If you want to be respected, you need to avoid taking this kind of thing personally.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by AdminJazzlover, posted 11-30-2004 11:24 PM AdminJazzlover has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by AdminJazzlover, posted 12-04-2004 12:05 PM zephyr has not replied

  
Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 5605 days)
Posts: 272
From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco
Joined: 06-21-2003


Message 56 of 110 (164862)
12-03-2004 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by jar
12-01-2004 12:04 AM


Re: Trying to head back towards the topic...
Jar writes:
But you haven't heard any humans speaking chimpanzee either. Also, how do you think language might show up in the fossil record?
But you haven't heard any humans speaking chimpanzee either. Also, how do you think language might show up in the fossil record?
I know I know i was just being sarcastic. The truth is that we are similar to the chimps and other animals for the simple reason that we live in the same planet. We drink the same water, breathe the same oxygen and eat the same bananas. I believe that for this to be possible you need to have a similar DNA but this doesnt mean that we are a transicion from the apes. If we were transicion from the apes then I would be able to do what apes do and do what humans do because im an updated version of the chimp. I mean we can't climb trees the way a chimp does.

Ponlo todo en las manos de Dios y que se joda el mundo. El principio de la sabiduria es el temor a Jehova

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by jar, posted 12-01-2004 12:04 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by JonF, posted 12-03-2004 10:03 AM Itachi Uchiha has replied
 Message 59 by Ooook!, posted 12-03-2004 10:28 AM Itachi Uchiha has not replied
 Message 60 by jar, posted 12-03-2004 12:52 PM Itachi Uchiha has replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 158 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 57 of 110 (164868)
12-03-2004 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Itachi Uchiha
12-03-2004 9:53 AM


Re: Trying to head back towards the topic...
If we were transicion from the apes then I would be able to do what apes do and do what humans do because im an updated version of the chimp
Ah, but the theory does not say (and the evidence does not indicate) that you are an updated version of the chimp. You and the chimp are different updated versions of a common ancestor. As such, we can do things that the common ancestor couldn't and the chimp can do things that the common ancestor couldn't.
And, of course, there's no reason why we should retain all the abilities of our distant ancestors if they're not evolutionarily advantageous. For example, blind cave fish (which have non-functional eyes) have obviously lost an ability that their distant ancestors had ... because they have no use for it and there's an advantage in their particular environment to not putting any energy into operating eyes. Eventually they'll probably lose the eyes altogether.
So don't assume that we can do all that our distant ancestors could, or that we can do all that our distant cousins can.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Itachi Uchiha, posted 12-03-2004 9:53 AM Itachi Uchiha has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by NosyNed, posted 12-03-2004 10:06 AM JonF has not replied
 Message 63 by Itachi Uchiha, posted 12-04-2004 12:24 PM JonF has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 58 of 110 (164869)
12-03-2004 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by JonF
12-03-2004 10:03 AM


Re: Trying to head back towards the topic...
Jazz, the question still stands:
What do you think a transitional would look like? It is very hard to sort this out until you have a reasonable idea of that.
You wouldn't make the mistake you did if you had that sorted out.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by JonF, posted 12-03-2004 10:03 AM JonF has not replied

  
Ooook!
Member (Idle past 5805 days)
Posts: 340
From: London, UK
Joined: 09-29-2003


Message 59 of 110 (164874)
12-03-2004 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Itachi Uchiha
12-03-2004 9:53 AM


Re: Trying to head back towards the topic...
Time for another orangutan to enter the fray!
If we were transicion from the apes then I would be able to do what apes do and do what humans do because im an updated version of the chimp. I mean we can't climb trees the way a chimp does.
I think you need to be careful about defining a transitional this way. Nobody is saying that an animal retains all of the characteristics of it's ancestors. If a trait like climbing trees was not useful to one of our ancestors, why on earth would natural selection force human ancestors to keep it?
On top of this, a loss of characteristic could also be viewed as useful like, for example, the loss of strong jaw muscles:
The great apes, apart from ourselves all have very strong jaw muscles - very useful I'm sure you'll agree. Humans seem to have lost this aid to eating tough things (due to a mutation in a single gene), and a recent popular theory is that this removed a physiological barrier to developing larger brains. So not only was it not particuarly required to keep the muscles (due to a namby-pamby diet most likely), it was actually advantageous to lose them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Itachi Uchiha, posted 12-03-2004 9:53 AM Itachi Uchiha has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 60 of 110 (164898)
12-03-2004 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Itachi Uchiha
12-03-2004 9:53 AM


Re: Trying to head back towards the topic...
But you are still avoiding the question. How are a human and a chimpanzee different?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Itachi Uchiha, posted 12-03-2004 9:53 AM Itachi Uchiha has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Itachi Uchiha, posted 12-04-2004 12:29 PM jar has replied

  
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