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Author Topic:   Land Mammal to Whale transition: fossils Part II
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3939 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 16 of 288 (231580)
08-09-2005 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by randman
08-09-2005 6:11 PM


Re: replying to fossilzation process here
Easy. Google "ring species"
Dogs are a good example, can a chiuaua mate with a great dane? No. Does that make them different species? Yes by your definition.
Yet. A chiuaua can mate with a type of dog who can mate with a type of dog, etc, until you do find a type of dog that can mate with a great dane. SO when did the speciation occur?

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by randman, posted 08-09-2005 6:11 PM randman has replied

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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3939 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 46 of 288 (232060)
08-10-2005 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by randman
08-10-2005 7:04 PM


Re: replying to fossilzation process here
I think the biggest problem with your position is that a lack of fossils does not equate to a lack of transitional species.
In this way the fossil record is not evidence contrary to evolution because you cannot make the claim of a lack of transitional species due to a lack of fossils. Absence of evidences does not equal evidence of absence.
The evidence for evolution stands regardless of the fossil record and in no way have you delivered any substantial point to show that the fossil record refutes evolution.
In order to show that the fossil record is contrary to evolution you must show that transitional forms cannot exist rather than what you are doing right now which is simply stating the tautology that they do not exist.
Any claims to the contrary can simply and once again be dismissed by the fact that the ToE does not rely upon the fossil record as its main body of evidence.

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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3939 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 119 of 288 (232955)
08-13-2005 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by randman
08-13-2005 2:19 AM


Re: replying to fossilzation process here
It is a principle of logic.
It is equivalent to trying to show a negative by lack of evidence for the positive. It is a fallacy.
http://www.sunspot.noao.edu/sunspot/pr/science-11.html
http://www.acsh.org/factsfears/newsID.552/news_detail.asp
While sometimes it can be used innappropriatly in the same way people continually use the word "straw man" here, in this case the usage is apt.
This is in particular because we have learned that fossilization is a rare process.

Fossilization
Fossil - Wikipedia
The Skeptic Files - SkepticFiles Setting
http://www.msnucleus.org/...n/Pleistocene/FossilAreRare.html
http://home.tiac.net/~cri/1998/taphonomy.html
Certainly some environments can preserve better than others but it is pretty widely agreed upon that most animals do not fossilize when they die, therefore we should expect and absence of these animals in the fossil record.
--We couldn't find that Web page (Error 404) - Government of Canada Web Usability theme / Nous ne pouvons trouver cette page Web (Erreur 404) - Thme de la facilit d’emploi Web du gouvernement du Canada

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This message is a reply to:
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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3939 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 222 of 288 (233502)
08-15-2005 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by randman
08-15-2005 4:10 PM


Fossils not only evidence of whale evolution
I am not sure if others just forgot of it is OT for this thread but one of the extremely convincing evidence (other than the genetics) that whales derived from land mammals is the presence of atavisms in whales.
Check out the sections on whales with legs.
Whale Evolution and Atavistic Hind Limbs on Modern Whales
Scroll down to the section on atavisms.
29+ Evidences for Macroevolution: Part 2
If whales did not come from land mammals. Why do they sometimes have legs?

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