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Author | Topic: Land Mammal to Whale transition: fossils Part II | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Admin Director Posts: 13038 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
I see AdminJar has suspended randman, I assume for just 24 hours.
To randman I'd like to suggest that he try not to turn every thread into a discussion of his favorite topic, the dishonesty of evolutionists. The topic of this thread is the fossil record for whales and whether it is supportive of evolution. To everyone, for a thread supposedly about whales, damn few messages contain the word whale.
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Admin Director Posts: 13038 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Randman,
Just a short while after your return from suspension, you've already got me plenty worried. Please read the Forum Guidelines, especially rule 10. I'm going to come back in a couple hours, and if I don't see a marked improvement in the constructiveness of your approach I will suspend you again. I'll take this opportunity to caution others discussing with Randman. Anyone who follows Randman in tone or style, and I believe I'm seeing increasing examples recently, will follow him to the sidelines.
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Admin Director Posts: 13038 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
I suppose it's too late now, but replying to 10 or 20 old posts in a thread, some of which you already replied to more than 50 messages ago, is likely to sow more confusion than anything else.
It would be good if there could be a fairly tight focus in this thread. Could you write a single short post identifying what you believe are the important issues at this point? You can provide links and/or excerpts of old messages if you think that would be helpful.
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Admin Director Posts: 13038 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
To everyone,
I think I discern two issues that we need to have better agreement upon before this thread can become productive:
I can't see much constructive discussion coming out of this thread until there is agreement on these issues.
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Admin Director Posts: 13038 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Hi Randman,
I'm going to do something that long experience has taught me is almost never successful: spend some time explaining to you where, in my opinion (one of the one's that counts around here), you are going wrong, in the hopes that it will allow discussions in which you participate to proceed more smoothly and constructively. I said:
I suppose it's too late now, but replying to 10 or 20 old posts in a thread, some of which you already replied to more than 50 messages ago, is likely to sow more confusion than anything else. You replied:
Are you asking me, after writing such long posts, to address and make sure others address the specific factual issues, that I should ignore responses from people? That would seem a little disingenious on my part? If this is assent, I can't tell. Most people upon seeing such a message from a moderator would reply along the lines of, "I was trying to be sure I didn't ignore any responses, but I can see where replying to posts near the thread's beginning might be confusing." It raises moderators concern level a great deal when you respond to requests with what appears to be argument. Rather than explain and explain, which as I've said almost never works, now we just suspend and suspend.
Evos claim fossil rarity on this thread but offer near no actual analysis to explain how some species can have thousands of fossils and other aquatic and semi-aquatic species, thousands most likely, apparently never fossilized or we have none. This is a point which needs to be explored more thoroughly. Others in this thread believe you are dismissing what they're telling you based upon nothing more than personal skepticism. Your tendency to often restate your conclusions without having settled this point makes it seem to people that you're not listening. Moving on to your next message, Message 124:
At best, Pakicetus could be an ancestral form to whales, but imo, that is highly dubious, but the debate is really about the degrees of fossilized forms found compared to how many should have existed and how many should have been found. I would make the same point as before: to people here you appear to be dismissing their counterarguments while frequently repeating your conclusions, which are based upon an unsettled point. Again, it makes it seem like you're not listening. If you keep insisting you're right and then moving on while the issue is still in dispute, then this thread has little chance of success. I can tell by your tone that you think your reasoning sound, but the actual test of sound reasoning is that it make sense to other people, not just to you.
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Admin Director Posts: 13038 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Hi Randman,
Trying to explain things to you isn't working, so I'm going to be very brief this time.
randman writes: Others in this thread believe you are dismissing what they're telling you based upon nothing more than personal skepticism. Your tendency to often restate your conclusions without having settled this point makes it seem to people that you're not listening. I guess I see it the other way around. Yes, I know you do. I'm trying to help you escape a pattern of repeated suspensions, but I'm not sensing much interest on your part. I think this could be a very productive thread, but you have to be willing to give some consideration to what people are telling you. I've exhausted the time I have available to help you, so I'm going to suspend you for 24-hours again. I'm on your side, really I am. I can see that you're working hard, but I feel like the football coach who screams at the player who just recovered the fumble, "Run like hell," which the player does, but toward the wrong end zone. You have to admire the effort but question the presence of mind. See you tomorrow night.
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Admin Director Posts: 13038 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Hi Randman,
Here are some interesting statistics. This is the number of posts from each contributor to this thread:
mick 1 Brad 2 Percy 2 robinrohan 2 AdminJar 3 AdminNosy 3 Chiroptera 3 Jazzns 3 mark24 4 wj 4 MangyTiger 5 Admin 6 arachnophilia 6 Omnivorous 6 Ringo316 6 Yaro 25 NosyNed 27 randman 60 You have more than twice as many posts as the next closest contributor. You've written more than 1/3 of all the posts in this thread. If you'd like to remain here on a more consistent basis then you'll have to do more listening and less talking. The sheer volume of your posts is obfuscating the issues. I don't think those who respond to your every post are helping, either. While the intentions may be good, I think the effect is just contributing to the delinquincy of a member. Also, many posts in a short period of time usually indicate that much more typing than thinking is going on. In Message 120 I suggested that the focus should be on two issues: the likelihood of fossilization, and how gradually one species becomes another. The suggestion wasn't an idle one (see rule 1 of the Forum Guidelines), because I think your mistaken views on these topics are having a strong influence on what you think we should see in the fossil record of whales. I also want you to be more tentative in your approach. Ask more questions, make fewer declarations. I'm restoring your privileges early because since I'm working today I can check in periodically. I'm not writing this because I like to see myself type. I expect to see some indications that my suggestions are having some influence. Lastly, do not under any circumstances respond to this post. We're not having a discussion. I'm moderating, you're being moderated. Capice?
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Admin Director Posts: 13038 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
randman writes: Admin has defined the thread discussion to concern 2 areas.
likelihood of fossilization, and how gradually one species becomes another. Actually, my suggestion was that these two issues need to be resolved before discussion can move on, not that those should be become the topic for the thread. Right now this thread is repeating this pattern:
[text=black]Randman: There should be more transitionals. Evolutionist: Fossilization is rare. Randman: I don't believe that, and there should be more transitionals. Evolutionist: All species are transitional. Randman: No, evolution does not say this, there should be more transitional fossils. Evolutionist: Fossilization is rare. And so on...[/text] I'm trying to break the thread out of this pattern. Spending some time discussing the rarity of fossilization and the nature of transitionals should permit more productive discussion of the fossil record for whale evolution.
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Admin Director Posts: 13038 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
randman writes: Ned, after this post, maybe it would be better for me just to use the general reply post and address more than one reply in order not to dominate the post count on this thread, since I am the only non-evo. It is understood that in a one-on-many debate that the one will have more posts. A large number of posts is fine as long as the discussion is constructive and focused, which seems to be the case now. I appreciate the effort you're making. The goal is to actually resolve issues and not just sit in our respective corners restating our conclusions to each other. Useful conclusions develop from concise reasoning from quality evidence.
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Admin Director Posts: 13038 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
To everyone,
This is from Randman:
Ned and others, I am not abandoning the thread, but I've got to work as well. It is a good idea to let people know if the pattern of your replies will be different for a while, but please everyone, keep in mind that there is no time requirement on replies, though you should probably let people know if you'll be posting less often than once a week or intermittently. If you post all day, people will become accustomed to instant responses. If you post from the other side of the world, people will become accustomed to posting at different times from you. If you post once a week, people will become accustomed to that. It is only when you break your pattern and begin posting, say, once week after participating every day that people begin to assume you've left the debate. When you have to be away for a while then it's not a bad idea to let people know, as Randman does here. But, there is no time limit. Don't play at EvC Forum when you should be working!
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