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Author Topic:   Evolution of Behavior
daaaaaBEAR
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 39 (183201)
02-05-2005 1:41 AM


Is evolution responsible for our behavior?

I'm bringing up this topic because I realized that evolution, with the advancement of our physical bodies, would also develop the way we act if my logic is right. If this is true then how is murder, rape, cannibalism, etc. justified?


Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by NosyNed, posted 02-05-2005 2:53 AM daaaaaBEAR has responded
 Message 4 by jar, posted 02-05-2005 1:13 PM daaaaaBEAR has responded
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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 39 (183213)
02-05-2005 2:51 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8839
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 3 of 39 (183214)
02-05-2005 2:53 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by daaaaaBEAR
02-05-2005 1:41 AM


Behaviors.
It has been demonstarted that there is a significant genetic component to some of our behaviours. That strongly suggests that evolution would act on behaviours.

If this is true then how is murder, rape, cannibalism, etc. justified?

Could you show the logic you use to suddenly jump to that??


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by daaaaaBEAR, posted 02-05-2005 1:41 AM daaaaaBEAR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by daaaaaBEAR, posted 02-06-2005 1:36 AM NosyNed has not yet responded
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jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 4 of 39 (183280)
02-05-2005 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by daaaaaBEAR
02-05-2005 1:41 AM


Is evolution responsible for our behavior?

Possibly. There are many indications that certain behaviors are caused by genetic traits. The question is whether all behaviors have such basic causes, or if any or all behaviors have a single cause, the Nature vs Nuture issue.

I'm bringing up this topic because I realized that evolution, with the advancement of our physical bodies, would also develop the way we act if my logic is right.

Once again, evolution is not related to advancing or improving things. It is simply a history of what did happen. It's not bad to good, worse to better, less advanced to more advanced. It is simply history.

If this is true then how is murder, rape, cannibalism, etc. justified?

Well, whether any of those are good or bad depends on the society and its moral system. Each of those could be said to have either an advantage or disadvantage as far as evolution would be concerned so they would have to be said to be neutral behaviors themselves. It is only when they are set against some moral framework that they take on any conotations of good or bad or right or wrong.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by daaaaaBEAR, posted 02-05-2005 1:41 AM daaaaaBEAR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by daaaaaBEAR, posted 02-06-2005 1:54 AM jar has responded
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daaaaaBEAR
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 39 (183395)
02-06-2005 1:36 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by NosyNed
02-05-2005 2:53 AM


Re: Behaviors.
Could you show the logic you use to suddenly jump to that??

I might not have worded that right. My logic is that if behavior goes along with the evolutionary process, then certain behaviors would be a natural link to our genetic make-up.

If this true then why is there a choice to do good and do bad? If behavior is biological and not free will, then there would be no choice for our actions. They would simply be natural processes.

This message has been edited by daaaaaBEAR, 02-06-2005 01:37 AM


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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daaaaaBEAR
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 39 (183396)
02-06-2005 1:54 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by jar
02-05-2005 1:13 PM


Once again, evolution is not related to advancing or improving things. It is simply a history of what did happen. It's not bad to good, worse to better, less advanced to more advanced. It is simply history.

another contradiction.. dictionary definition: "Change in the genetic composition of a population during successive generations, as a result of natural selection acting on the genetic variation among individuals, and resulting in the development of new species." or "A gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex or better form"

So its history, huh? The Bible is history too, and its accurate without a doubt. Check your dictionary or don't use the word evolution. evolution is bad to good, less complex to more complex.

Well, whether any of those are good or bad depends on the society and its moral system. Each of those could be said to have either an advantage or disadvantage as far as evolution would be concerned so they would have to be said to be neutral behaviors themselves. It is only when they are set against some moral framework that they take on any conotations of good or bad or right or wrong.

So murder can be right for you but not for me?!?!?! I can see how evolution would support this fact and it leaves me with an undeniable sense of relief that I believe in a social system where right is right and wrong is wrong.

An advantage?!?! You said it could also be a disadvantage but to claim that rape or murder might possibly be beneficial to the advancement of human beings is downright offensive to the human race.

without absolute truth our society is chaos.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by jar, posted 02-05-2005 1:13 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by jar, posted 02-06-2005 9:35 AM daaaaaBEAR has responded

  
caligola2
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 39 (183440)
02-06-2005 6:58 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by NosyNed
02-05-2005 2:53 AM


Re: Behaviors.
It has been demonstarted that there is a significant genetic component to some of our behaviours. That strongly suggests that evolution would act on behaviours.

do you have a link to a research on the field which supports this assertion?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by NosyNed, posted 02-05-2005 2:53 AM NosyNed has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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caligola2
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 39 (183441)
02-06-2005 7:03 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by daaaaaBEAR
02-06-2005 1:36 AM


Re: Behaviors.
If this true then why is there a choice to do good and do bad? If behavior is biological and not free will, then there would be no choice for our actions. They would simply be natural processes.

If society will accept the principle that free will is only apparent, but doesn't truely exists it will lead to anarchy and chaos.

one of the important princples which society is protected by is the notion that each individual is responsible for his own actions.


This message is a reply to:
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Clark
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 39 (183448)
02-06-2005 7:44 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by daaaaaBEAR
02-06-2005 1:36 AM


Re: Behaviors.
Genes aren't destiny. For example, one of THE overriding "themes" of Evolution is reproduction. We humans go against our genetic destiny when we use birth control.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by daaaaaBEAR, posted 02-06-2005 1:36 AM daaaaaBEAR has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 10 of 39 (183475)
02-06-2005 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by daaaaaBEAR
02-06-2005 1:54 AM


When you are talking about evolution of species, it is the first definition that applies. Notice that there is no mention of better or worse, bad or good in the first definition.

The Bible is history too, and its accurate without a doubt.

We'll, as a Christian I have to ask how you came to that conclusion, but it is off topic for this thread. If you think the Bible is historically accurate come on over to some of the threads discussing that.

So murder can be right for you but not for me?!?!?!

Where did I say that?

You said it could also be a disadvantage but to claim that rape or murder might possibly be beneficial to the advancement of human beings is downright offensive to the human race.

And I said that where?

without absolute truth our society is chaos.

Again, totally off topic but if you are aware of an absolute truth, please come join one of those discussions.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by daaaaaBEAR, posted 02-06-2005 1:54 AM daaaaaBEAR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by daaaaaBEAR, posted 02-06-2005 2:47 PM jar has responded

  
daaaaaBEAR
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 39 (183535)
02-06-2005 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by jar
02-06-2005 9:35 AM


If this is true then how is murder, rape, cannibalism, etc. justified?

this is where you said it:

Well, whether any of those are good or bad depends on the society and its moral system.

So if a person is from a different country then murder is OK because of the moral structure or one's religious affiliation? You didn't say it in terms of me and you, obviously, but what you implied is that murder or any other sin's moral value is based upon the society and its moral system?
Al Quaida terrorists are extremists. They believe that crashing a plan e into the World Trade Center was a religious crusade and they would be eternally glorified for that action. If moral absolutes are not held then we as the victims can just say "Well, if its they think that's the right thing to do then we can't interfere." No, behavior has to have a moral structure (right and wrong). Evolution does not agree with this because our behavior would just be the way we evolved. Did Ed Gein evolve to go through with countless gruesome murders, did Mother Theresa evolve to do good, did Hitler evolve to be the leader of massacres? If there's not a benchmark for what is right and wrong then truth is truly lost.

on rape, murder, cannibalism:

Each of those could be said to have either an advantage or disadvantage as far as evolution would be concerned..

Just look at what you posted in response to my comments. From that perspective a "sin" (if you have morals) may have an evolutionary advantage over another. If this is true then carnivores such as lions, sharks, etc. are the same as murderers. Except that carnivores kill so they can live....Why do humans kill other humans? Does it benefit our existence? Carnivores kill because they have to and its instinct but humans function on a level of right and wrong. You don't have to be a scientists to see it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by jar, posted 02-06-2005 9:35 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by jar, posted 02-06-2005 3:06 PM daaaaaBEAR has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 12 of 39 (183542)
02-06-2005 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by daaaaaBEAR
02-06-2005 2:47 PM


So if a person is from a different country then murder is OK because of the moral structure or one's religious affiliation?

Well, I didn't say that, the Bible does.

You didn't say it in terms of me and you, obviously, but what you implied is that murder or any other sin's moral value is based upon the society and its moral system?

That's correct. The Bible is full of immoral act commited by very moral people.

Evolution does not agree with this because our behavior would just be the way we evolved.

No, the Theory of Evolution says nothing about behavior. And, as I said, there is both Nature and Nurture. Morals are established by the community. that is something entirely seperate.

Just look at what you posted in response to my comments. From that perspective a "sin" (if you have morals) may have an evolutionary advantage over another. If this is true then carnivores such as lions, sharks, etc. are the same as murderers. Except that carnivores kill so they can live....Why do humans kill other humans? Does it benefit our existence? Carnivores kill because they have to and its instinct but humans function on a level of right and wrong.

Stop and think about what you're saying and break it down step by step.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by daaaaaBEAR, posted 02-06-2005 2:47 PM daaaaaBEAR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by daaaaaBEAR, posted 02-06-2005 3:32 PM jar has responded

  
daaaaaBEAR
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 39 (183546)
02-06-2005 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by jar
02-06-2005 3:06 PM


Here are two things you said:
There are many indications that certain behaviors are caused by genetic traits.
and
the Theory of Evolution says nothing about behavior.

If that's not self-contradictory I don't know what is. Aren't genetic traits PART of evolution? Please order your thoughts.

Well, I didn't say that, the Bible does.

Do you have any proof whatsoever for that claim?

That's correct. The Bible is full of immoral act commited by very moral people.

So you affirm that right and wrong is relative, at least we got that straight. I would like to ask why you to try to discredit the Bible to use for your support. I'm talking about evolution and how what is has to do with behavior, not the Bible. This is off topic here.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by jar, posted 02-06-2005 3:06 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by jar, posted 02-06-2005 4:06 PM daaaaaBEAR has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 14 of 39 (183554)
02-06-2005 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by daaaaaBEAR
02-06-2005 3:32 PM


daaaaaBEAR writes:

Here are two things you said:

There are many indications that certain behaviors are caused by genetic traits.
and
the Theory of Evolution says nothing about behavior.

If that's not self-contradictory I don't know what is. Aren't genetic traits PART of evolution? Please order your thoughts.

Well, perhaps you really don't know.

Sorry but they are not contradictory. The first says that there is some indication that certain behaviors are genetic in origin. What does that have to do with the TOE? You may also want to try to understand the difference between Evolution and the TOE. That would be a good place to start.

daaaaaBear then goes on to ask...

I would like to ask why you to try to discredit the Bible to use for your support.

As you say, this is off topic but I'll give you a short answer. Of course I have proof that the Bible is full of immoral act commited by very moral people. It even shows instances where canibalism are the required behavior for the chosen people. But wander over to one of the threads where we discuss such issues and we can continue.

edited to add requisite spalling arrers.

This message has been edited by jar, 02-06-2005 15:07 AM


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
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Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 3113 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 15 of 39 (183578)
02-06-2005 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by caligola2
02-06-2005 7:03 AM


Re: Behaviors.
free behavior and the inheritance of goodwill are not contradictory.

free will as ONLY appearence however constricts the biology of activity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by caligola2, posted 02-06-2005 7:03 AM caligola2 has not yet responded

    
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