Vestiges for Peter B.

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Originally posted by John:
Hi Schraf,

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Originally posted by schrafinator:
Oh, and John, I have to say that the picture of your demon/hot chick is the kind of thing sold at gaming conventions that geeky computer nerds who can't get a date have hanging in their bedrooms. Not horribly offensive to me, but still pretty cartoonish and the kind of thing that I tend to think appeals to men who still have um, teenage-type sex fantasies.

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I have no problem with that actually. I realize the stupidity of it. I've learned not to take myself too seriously. I can get very arrogant, so I tone myself down with cheesie stuff.

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As for the age of consent stuff...

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Several of the items you posted involved rape-- forced sex not statutory rape. Rape ranks with murder in my book and I support vicious punishments for it. I don't understand the inclusion of this material. I haven't written a treatise in support of forced sex. The intent is not to legalize or encourage predation but to disconnect maturity from physical age.

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Teen pregnancy is a real problem, but not one tied to the age of consent. Consent, in giving some power to teen girls, might actually help curb teen pregnancy. Just a thought. It seems that, within limits, the more you treat kids/teens like adults, the more they act like adults.

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Nos posted something to the effect that a high age of consent serves as a form of birth control. This is essentially what exists now and it hasn't worked so far has it?

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I am confused as to exactly what your position is on this.

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Take care.

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Let me put it this way...Should it be automatically legal for a man to have sex with a 6 year old girl? What about a 7 year old? Is 8 years old old enough? 9? 10? 11?We have to draw the line somewhere, don't we?Age of consent laws are out there, I am sorry to say, because without them, I think that the coercive and and predatory instincts of boys and men would have even freer reign than they already have.I am not saying that all men and boys are predatory. But I, literally, do not know of a single female friend I have ever known who wasn't the recipient of unwanted sexual contact or comments delivered by a male at some point in their lives. It happens to the vast, vast majority of women and girls.I led a fairly sheltered life, but I had some pretty scary moments growing up. Remember, girls and women can be "made" to engage in intercourse where men have to be able to "perform".I remember hearing about some study...the Hite Report? (how's that for evidence? ) in which women were asked if they had ever felt pressure or coersion to have sex, and the men were asked if they had ever pressured or coerced anyone to have sex. The women reported a significantly higher percentage of having felt coreced or pressured. The men's number was significantly lower than the womens', which implies that the men were not recognizing when they were using coercive or pressuring tactics to make the women have sex with them.It is easier to manipulate the feelings and emotions of young people than older people. Many men find much. much younger girls attractive because they are socialized to and because it is just asier to get into a child's pants because she doesn't know what it's all about until it's too late.It would be great, believe me, if our clture was ready to celebrate girl's sexuality, but it isn't. It is all we can do to keep girls from being abused and raped in their own homes.

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Originally posted by schrafinator:
Should it be automatically legal for a man to have sex with a 6 year old girl? What about a 7 year old? Is 8 years old old enough? 9? 10? 11?

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No, and nowhere have I said such should be automatically legal.

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We have to draw the line somewhere, don't we?

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Yes, of course. My point is that where, or rather how, we draw that line is flawed.

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Age of consent laws are out there, I am sorry to say, because without them, I think that the coercive and and predatory instincts of boys and men would have even freer reign than they already have.

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Agreed, its just that I think the emphasis should be on something meaningful like a person's ability to consent, rather than something arbitrary like age.

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I am not saying that all men and boys are predatory. But I, literally, do not know of a single female friend I have ever known who wasn't the recipient of unwanted sexual contact or comments delivered by a male at some point in their lives. It happens to the vast, vast majority of women and girls.

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Same with my friends. But that is a different crime. I haven't written about how to deal with rape and rapists, but about how to deal with consensual sex.

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I led a fairly sheltered life, but I had some pretty scary moments growing up. Remember, girls and women can be "made" to engage in intercourse where men have to be able to "perform".

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I took a few minutes and looked up a couple of things. ViX: Cine y TV en Espaol

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It is easier to manipulate the feelings and emotions of young people than older people. Many men find much. much younger girls attractive because they are socialized to and because it is just asier to get into a child's pants because she doesn't know what it's all about until it's too late.

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Again, Shraf, way off base. I do not propose that men be allowed to get into a child's pants.It's weird. Mention the age of consent and suddenly people start having visions of child rape. I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT LEGALIZING CHILD RAPE.It is as if the age of consent were somehow sacrosanct-- a gift from the divine. This despite the fact that the actual magical age fluctuates wildly state by state, country by country, gender by gender, and even by sexual orientation. No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.ageofconsent.com/ageofconsent.htm------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

I don't think that a person's age is entirely arbitrary when it comes to being able to give consent.That's why I asked if it was OK for an adult to get consent from a 6 year old, etc.I do think that two 16 year olds having sex is very different from an 11 year old and a 19 year old.How do we judge if a person has the ability to consent, though, without lengthy sessions with a therapist? How do you know if the 14 year old girl can talk a really good game and "pass the test" just so she can go and have sex with the 24 year old guy who promises to "be hers forever" if she does.BTW, I do of course know that men can be victims of rape. It should also be noted that the vast, vast majority of rape victims are female.

I was hoping "Peter B" would tell me some more about the coccyx....

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Originally posted by schrafinator:
I don't think that a person's age is entirely arbitrary when it comes to being able to give consent.

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Not entirely, but it is no determinant of maturity either.

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That's why I asked if it was OK for an adult to get consent from a 6 year old, etc.

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Nothing I would propose would make this ok.

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I do think that two 16 year olds having sex is very different from an 11 year old and a 19 year old.

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Sure, but if that 19 year old had sex with a 17 year old in D.C. everything would be fine. However, if they were in California that 19 year old is going to jail. Does that really make sense to you? OR New Hampshire, a person is mature enough to consent to heterosexual activity at 16, but isn't mature enough to consent to homosexual activity until 18. Or New Mexico, one must be 17 to consent to heterosexual activity, but can consent to homosexual activity at 13? Do people truly mature at these disparate rates?

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How do we judge if a person has the ability to consent, though, without lengthy sessions with a therapist? How do you know if the 14 year old girl can talk a really good game and "pass the test" just so she can go and have sex with the 24 year old guy who promises to "be hers forever" if she does.

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This is the most difficult question to answer.Look at it from the other direction. How do we know that a 16 year old IS capable of consent? We don't, but at that age she or he is fair game in a lot of states. Hell, I know thirty year olds not capable of consent by any standards reasonable to me.This is complicated by the fact that in Vermont, for example, "45% of child sexual abuse" is "perpetrated by children and teens." Forbidden------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

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Originally posted by John:
[B]

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Originally posted by schrafinator:
I don't think that a person's age is entirely arbitrary when it comes to being able to give consent.

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Not entirely, but it is no determinant of maturity either.[/QUOTE]

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But it is in part a determinant of maturity. That's why it isn't OK for an adult to have sex with a 6 year old, ever. (I know you weren't saying this)

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All I am saying is that when we are making laws that are supposed to prevent adults from manipulating children sexually, we are going to have to err on the side of "a little bit older than is probably necessary", and we are going to have to make it pretty firm.

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I do think that two 16 year olds having sex is very different from an 11 year old and a 19 year old.

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Sure, but if that 19 year old had sex with a 17 year old in D.C. everything would be fine. However, if they were in California that 19 year old is going to jail. Does that really make sense to you? OR New Hampshire, a person is mature enough to consent to heterosexual activity at 16, but isn't mature enough to consent to homosexual activity until 18. Or New Mexico, one must be 17 to consent to heterosexual activity, but can consent to homosexual activity at 13? Do people truly mature at these disparate rates?

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I do agree that this kind of thing is arbitrary and probably lags behind current developmental psychology in most cases.

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How do we judge if a person has the ability to consent, though, without lengthy sessions with a therapist? How do you know if the 14 year old girl can talk a really good game and "pass the test" just so she can go and have sex with the 24 year old guy who promises to "be hers forever" if she does.

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This is the most difficult question to answer.Look at it from the other direction. How do we know that a 16 year old IS capable of consent? We don't, but at that age she or he is fair game in a lot of states. Hell, I know thirty year olds not capable of consent by any standards reasonable to me.This is complicated by the fact that in Vermont, for example, "45% of child sexual abuse" is "perpetrated by children and teens." Forbidden[/QUOTE]Well, I'd rather have a fairly strict, highish-age consent law if we don't have any other workable plan. I would also want judges to be able to use discretion in the case of obvious peers such as the 16 and 19 year old couple you used as an example.[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 09-13-2002]

I haven't read this whole thread, but something which is undeniably vestigial is the urate oxidase pseudogene in humans and chimps - its inarguably vestigial

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Originally posted by nos482:

We already have something like that. That is why we only allow a certain level of responsibility for certain ages.

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We are going around in circles. We allow a certain level of responsibility for a certain age without knowing if the person is mature enough to handle that responsibility.

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Originally posted by nos482:

We don't say you're 16 and you're now an adult. What we say is that you're now 16 and have reached a certain level of experience to be allowed to do this thing.

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Let see. Assuming sex to be illegal before the age of 16. You follow the law, how exactly would you have any experiance what-so-ever in regards to sex when you turn 16?

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Originally posted by nos482:

Two years extra experience to work with.

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And if you have no experience?

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Originally posted by nos482:

If one hasn't learn responsibility by age 18 than it is too late. My mother use to call it idiot hill (She had 5 sons, I'm number 5, and 1 daughter (#6)) and she said that if they hadn't gotten over it by then it was too late.

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Too late or not. What is the difference?

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Originally posted by nos482:

BTW, before the age of First Maturity (Mid 20's) a person doesn't actually age, it is more accurate to say that they have so many years of growth instead. If you continued to grow you would never age. Aging is dying.

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Is this true for the entire body or just most of it?------------------
compmage

Originally posted by compmage:We are going around in circles. We allow a certain level of responsibility for a certain age without knowing if the person is mature enough to handle that responsibility.That is why we have penalities for those who abuse them. They are privileges and not rights.Plus there is already something for children which can prove they are mature enough to handle adult responsibility. It is called emancipation.Let see. Assuming sex to be illegal before the age of 16. You follow the law, how exactly would you have any experiance what-so-ever in regards to sex when you turn 16?Experience as in life. To know what is right and what is wrong.Too late or not. What is the difference?Life, plus the body is better able to handle the responsiblity. Would you want a 13 or 14 year old to have a baby? Birth control is far from perfect. They may be able to handle the responsibility of having sex, but not the responsibilty of raising a child of their own.Is this true for the entire body or just most of it?Most of it. Hair and nails and the like don't count because they are already dead and it is really not growth, but expelling of dead tissues.[This message has been edited by nos482, 09-16-2002]

dear nos,You write:
"The reason why men have nipples is because the natural form of life is female, not male. If you look at the 23rd chromosome pair in men you will see that the Y is actually a broken X."I say:
What do you mean? The shape of the Y chromosome during mitosis? Observed through a light microscope? Or the DNA sequences? If you make such statements please back them up by references. Where did you find this information? According to my knowledge the Y chromosome has only a minor recombining part, demonstrating minor sequence homology with X.Peter

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Originally posted by peter borger:
dear nos,

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You write:
"The reason why men have nipples is because the natural form of life is female, not male. If you look at the 23rd chromosome pair in men you will see that the Y is actually a broken X."

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I say:
What do you mean? The shape of the Y chromosome during mitosis? Observed through a light microscope? Or the DNA sequences? If you make such statements please back them up by references. Where did you find this information? According to my knowledge the Y chromosome has only a minor recombining part, demonstrating minor sequence homology with X.

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Peter

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It was from a documentary on the differences and simularities between men and women.

Hey Peter B. - I thought you were going to tell me more about the coccyx and how it is not a vestige.Of course, I never even mentioned the coccyx, did I?

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Originally posted by schrafinator:
Well, I'd rather have a fairly strict, highish-age consent law if we don't have any other workable plan. I would also want judges to be able to use discretion in the case of obvious peers such as the 16 and 19 year old couple you used as an example.

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We are way off topic Schraf, so I am going to drop this. But I want to note that basically what I propose boils down to using discretion in the matter, just as in your last sentence.------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

But doesn't that suggest that the hair itself is
vestigial (in the context of this thread)?It is left-over because the follicle has a useful function.

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Originally posted by schrafinator:

BTW, I do of course know that men can be victims of rape. It should also be noted that the vast, vast majority of rape victims are female.

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Unfortunately this is unknowable ... the majority of reported
rapes are perpetrated against women, that does not mean that
the numbers are not much higher for male rape.Many years ago rapes would go unreported for social and psychological
reasons (stigma, 'it's my fault', etc.), and this is most likely
the current status of male rape.As with domestic violence against men, the current view seems to
be 'that doesn't happen much though', which was exactly the
view taken towards these crimes a generation ago in relation to
women.