Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 64 (9073 total)
73 online now:
dwise1, nwr (2 members, 71 visitors)
Newest Member: FossilDiscovery
Post Volume: Total: 893,241 Year: 4,353/6,534 Month: 567/900 Week: 91/182 Day: 25/38 Hour: 0/3

Announcements: Security Update Released


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Is there really such a thing as a beneficial mutation?
Wounded King
Member (Idle past 3332 days)
Posts: 4149
From: Edinburgh, Scotland
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 7 of 223 (342918)
08-24-2006 7:17 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Faith
08-23-2006 9:07 PM


I don't think your 'definition' from Wikipedia really cuts the mustard. In the first place that article starts off...

In biology, mutations are changes to the genetic material (usually DNA or RNA). Mutations can be caused by copying errors in the genetic material during cell division and by exposure to radiation, chemicals (mutagens), or viruses, or can occur deliberately under cellular control during processes such as meiosis or hypermutation.

This is a much better definition of mutation as well as an explanation of some of the origins of mutation. The article only then goes on to describe mutations as the driving force of evolution on the second paragraph.

In biological terms saying that mutation is 'the driving force of evolution' really tells us nothing unless we understand what a mutation actually is.

This is a whole area I have hardly any understanding of, and Crash also said, I think in his post #170, that all of us get both our parents' alleles in different cells throughout our bodies -- if I got that right. I thought all our cells were some kind of package of both that defines us.

I think you misunderstood this, Crash explained several different things in that post and you seem to have got them mixed up.

1st- We do normally inherit an allele for each gene from each parent for all autosomal chromosomes (those that aren't sex chromosomes) and this genetic complement should be the same in every cell barring somatic mutation.

2nd- Because the sex chromosome, X and Y, have different genes on them mutations affecting those genes can have different effect. Crash gave the example of sex linked mutations which are common in men but rare in women due to women having 2 copies of the gene and both needing to be mutated for the disease to occur whereas men only have one copy on the single X chromosome they inherited from their mother. One obvious example would be the case of haemophilia.

3rd- This is what I think confused you the most. In women where there are 2 copies of the X chromosome one of these copies becomes largely inactivated. this inactivation occurs early in development but at a stage where there are still many distinct cells. Which X chromosome is inactivated in each cell is random so the resulting organism will be mosaic for which X chromosome is active in different cell lineages from those cells at the arly developmental stage, all of those early cells daughters will have maintained the same X chromosome in an inactive state. This gives rise in cats to calico patterning, where there are patches of light and dark fur, as there are pigmentation genes on the X chromosome.

But of course I was taken to task for my definition of "beneficial" which is too strict apparently as I can't accept most of the examples given as beneficial.

Your 'definition', which I never really saw defined, is not too strict if anythin it is too vague, it is also A)wrong and B) highly subjective.

All your definition seems to consist of is whether you personally think that the mutation confers a benefit in the colloquial sense of being 'good' for the organism. Whereas in evolutionary terms the only benefit that matters is that a particular allele is passed on more frequently than an alternative allele or that organisms posessing a gene reproduce more frequently than those lacking that gene.

TTFN,

WK


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Faith, posted 08-23-2006 9:07 PM Faith has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Brad McFall, posted 08-24-2006 8:58 AM Wounded King has taken no action

  
Wounded King
Member (Idle past 3332 days)
Posts: 4149
From: Edinburgh, Scotland
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 8 of 223 (342921)
08-24-2006 7:29 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by ReverendDG
08-23-2006 11:06 PM


yes but they found turning on those genes turn on things from eariar evolution like genes that turn chicken feathers to scales

I'm pretty sure the experiments that turn scutes into feathers and so on have had nothing to do with pseudogenes. Have any references to back this up?

TTFN,

WK


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by ReverendDG, posted 08-23-2006 11:06 PM ReverendDG has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by ReverendDG, posted 08-24-2006 2:25 PM Wounded King has taken no action

  
Wounded King
Member (Idle past 3332 days)
Posts: 4149
From: Edinburgh, Scotland
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 11 of 223 (342940)
08-24-2006 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Frog
08-24-2006 10:00 AM


How do you measure genetic information?

TTFN,

WK


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Frog, posted 08-24-2006 10:00 AM Frog has taken no action

  
Wounded King
Member (Idle past 3332 days)
Posts: 4149
From: Edinburgh, Scotland
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 15 of 223 (342966)
08-24-2006 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Faith
08-24-2006 11:34 AM


I get that mutations do happen that have a beneficial function although they also have destructive properties.

This seems to suggest that any beneficial mutation must also have a downside, there is no reason this need be the case. In fact this seems to be rather jumping the gun and making what should be what you are trying to show into one of your initial assumptions.

The process of mutation can produce both beneficial and detrimental mutations, and which is which may depend on the environmental context. The concept of 'destructive properties' is not a biological one and seems wrapped up in this creationist view of organisms as having some sort of platonically ideal complement of genes from which any change can only be downhill.

TTFN,

WK


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Faith, posted 08-24-2006 11:34 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Faith, posted 08-24-2006 12:00 PM Wounded King has replied

  
Wounded King
Member (Idle past 3332 days)
Posts: 4149
From: Edinburgh, Scotland
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 23 of 223 (342982)
08-24-2006 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Faith
08-24-2006 12:00 PM


and the evidence for its ability to drive evolution is really just not there for whatever reason.

All this really seems to mean is that no one has experimentally observed a monkey evolving into a man, this is essentially the same old ludicrous cat gives birth to dog requirement. All of the bacterial studies you decide to ignore show exactly that mutation is the source of the variation upon which natural selection acts and is therefore required for evolution.

If you do 'get' the idea of mutation and evolution then you would not expect to see experimentally observed examples of the evolution of the sorts of complex traits which take great spans of time to evolve. What we might expect to see with the resources we have available we do see.

If we did see such complex traits suddenly developing from nowhere in a population then I would consider that fairly convincing evidence for some form of intelligent design.

TTFN,

WK

Edited by Wounded King, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Faith, posted 08-24-2006 12:00 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Faith, posted 08-24-2006 1:27 PM Wounded King has taken no action

  
Wounded King
Member (Idle past 3332 days)
Posts: 4149
From: Edinburgh, Scotland
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 33 of 223 (343035)
08-24-2006 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by mjfloresta
08-24-2006 2:03 PM


Re: Beneficial mutation
Consider the many drosophilia experiments; Over 3000 mutations have occured as the result of radioactive exposure. These mutations have resulted in eyes, wings, and other body parts appearing in atypical locations on the fruit fly (eyes on the legs, extra wings). All of these body parts have been undeniably fruit-flyish (that is, the eyes are fruit fly eyes, the legs fruit fly legs, etc). None of these 3000 mutations have resulted in a more successful fruit fly.

Can you provide any evidence that any of these drosophila experiments were actually designed to produce 'a more successful fruit fly'. This is a popular bit of anti-evolution clap trap which ignores the fact that most of the large scale mutational screens, such as the seminal Nusslein-volhard and Wieschauss screen (Nusslein-volhard and Wieschauss, 1980), on drosophila were specifically performed to identify genes which were embryonic lethals or for other equally apparent large scale phenotypic effects and in most cases were the product of induced mutations by crude methods such as radiation exposure of treatment with mutagens.

If you think that is not the case then please provide some references for these drosophila experiments which were meant to result in 'a more successful fruit fly'.

TTFN,

WK


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by mjfloresta, posted 08-24-2006 2:03 PM mjfloresta has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by mjfloresta, posted 08-24-2006 4:37 PM Wounded King has replied

  
Wounded King
Member (Idle past 3332 days)
Posts: 4149
From: Edinburgh, Scotland
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 35 of 223 (343037)
08-24-2006 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by mjfloresta
08-24-2006 4:29 PM


Re: Beneficial mutation
Please could you tell us exactly how to measure genetic information?

TTFN,

WK


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by mjfloresta, posted 08-24-2006 4:29 PM mjfloresta has taken no action

  
Wounded King
Member (Idle past 3332 days)
Posts: 4149
From: Edinburgh, Scotland
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 37 of 223 (343046)
08-24-2006 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by mjfloresta
08-24-2006 4:37 PM


Re: Beneficial mutation
So what you are saying is that you have absolutely nothing to back up your claims and you are just making this shit up as you go along, fair enough.

since you are essentially speeding up the otherwise unobservable proccess by mass accumulating mutations...

*Bzzzzt
Sorry our survey says you have a fundamental lack of understanding of the processes of mutation. The source of the incremental changes which lead to complex adaptations in the course of evolution are not exposure to massive doses of ionising radiation or mutagenic chemicals. Thank you for playing.

Now how about that definition of genetic information, you might still win the consolation prize.

TTFN,

WK

Edited by Wounded King, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by mjfloresta, posted 08-24-2006 4:37 PM mjfloresta has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by mjfloresta, posted 08-24-2006 4:51 PM Wounded King has replied

  
Wounded King
Member (Idle past 3332 days)
Posts: 4149
From: Edinburgh, Scotland
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 42 of 223 (343057)
08-24-2006 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by mjfloresta
08-24-2006 4:51 PM


Re: Beneficial mutation
Simply ignore it like the 2 times you have ignored my request that you furnish us with either a definition of or a method for measuring genetic information?

So how 'bout you indulge me in explaining the actual processes of mutation.

There is another thread for this very purpose, Mutation and its role in evolution: A beginners guide.

TTFN,

WK

Edited by Wounded King, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by mjfloresta, posted 08-24-2006 4:51 PM mjfloresta has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by mjfloresta, posted 08-24-2006 5:34 PM Wounded King has replied

  
Wounded King
Member (Idle past 3332 days)
Posts: 4149
From: Edinburgh, Scotland
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 65 of 223 (343098)
08-24-2006 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by mjfloresta
08-24-2006 5:34 PM


Re: Beneficial mutation
Gain of information of this sort has not been observed

Gain of what information? You haven't described any gain of information in anything other but the vaguest of sense and still in terms of wanting an experimental observation of the sudden appearance of the sort of structures that take long stretches of time to develop.

If you think you can give us a proper usable definition by going into the genetics in depth then please do so, I'm sure we can stand a little genetics

nor does genetics confirm that it is even possible

What does this mean? Genetics certainly allows for it, what do you mean by 'confirm' other than actual experimental confirmation?

the actual genetic pathways involved in eye formation from one species to the next is extremely divergent

From one species to the next? Is that really what you mean? How highly divergent are the genetics between the development of human and chimp eyes? I'd certainly agree that there are significant differences between the development of vertebrate than invertebrate eyes, but from species to species I think you might only find significant differnces in a small number of cases.

TTFN,

WK


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by mjfloresta, posted 08-24-2006 5:34 PM mjfloresta has taken no action

  
Wounded King
Member (Idle past 3332 days)
Posts: 4149
From: Edinburgh, Scotland
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 67 of 223 (343100)
08-24-2006 6:39 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by mjfloresta
08-24-2006 6:23 PM


Re: Beneficial mutation environment
Jazzns was talking about information and you seem to have switched to talking about body plans.

If you can tell us how to measure the genetic information then you won't have to paste all those sequence alignments, not that we are against a good thread full of sequence alignments.

TTFN,

WK


This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by mjfloresta, posted 08-24-2006 6:23 PM mjfloresta has taken no action

  
Wounded King
Member (Idle past 3332 days)
Posts: 4149
From: Edinburgh, Scotland
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 70 of 223 (343103)
08-24-2006 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Archer Opteryx
08-24-2006 6:35 PM


Re: MJ's Body Plan hypothesis
I'd go with Brad on this and imagine that an 'unindividualised' body plan would be something like the vertebrate bauplan consisting of a general set of physical attributes shared by the vertebrates, even if i highly derived forms in some instances. The individuated body plan would then take into account derived features and novel structures which a particular clade might have.

So a tetrapod unindividuated body plan might have things like a spinal cord, a head two sets of paired appendages, a post anal tail and so forth while a rhino's body plan would include specific details like his horn.

And these plans encompass not only the morphology but the developmental pathways which are taken to produce them.

TTFN,

WK


This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-24-2006 6:35 PM Archer Opteryx has taken no action

  
Wounded King
Member (Idle past 3332 days)
Posts: 4149
From: Edinburgh, Scotland
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 76 of 223 (343117)
08-24-2006 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Faith
08-24-2006 7:18 PM


Re: Trying to steer the past sub-thread back on topic
This is ridiculous. In other words you are saying we have to accept evolution, period.

It isn't that you have to accept evolution per se but that you should accept evolutionary theories own estimations as to what could reasonably be expected to be experimentally observed arising in terms of mutation in line with that theory. This is in contrast to just picking your own arbitrary standard for what constitutes a beneficial mutation and insisting that evolutionary theory toes the line if it is to be credible.

TTFN,

WK


This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Faith, posted 08-24-2006 7:18 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Faith, posted 08-24-2006 7:47 PM Wounded King has taken no action

  
Wounded King
Member (Idle past 3332 days)
Posts: 4149
From: Edinburgh, Scotland
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 98 of 223 (343201)
08-25-2006 2:15 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Aegist
08-25-2006 12:26 AM


Evolution of Nylonase from frameshift mutation: http://www.nmsr.org/nylon.htm

RAAARRRRRRGH!!!!! You have awoken the slumbering beast!!!!

This sites is riddled with innaccuracies, it is one of my prticular bugbears since it is so often cited in relation to the evolution of nylon metabolisis. A much better reference would either be to the paper that the NMSR site misrepresents (Ohno, 1984) which is freely available online or to the much more relevant to this discussion Prijambada (1995) paper which actually discusses the de novo development of nylonase enzymes.

For the specific details of my issues with this site see my thread 'Is the evidence concerning the Nylon bug being exaggerated'.

TTFN,

WK

/rant


This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Aegist, posted 08-25-2006 12:26 AM Aegist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Faith, posted 08-25-2006 2:21 AM Wounded King has taken no action
 Message 100 by Aegist, posted 08-25-2006 2:21 AM Wounded King has taken no action

  
Wounded King
Member (Idle past 3332 days)
Posts: 4149
From: Edinburgh, Scotland
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 102 of 223 (343216)
08-25-2006 5:04 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by ikabod
08-25-2006 4:59 AM


be good in the sea be poor on the land ...

So true, as this research shows.

TTFN,

WK


This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by ikabod, posted 08-25-2006 4:59 AM ikabod has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by ikabod, posted 08-25-2006 12:04 PM Wounded King has taken no action

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.1
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2022