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Author Topic:   Why is evolutions primary mechanism mutation ?
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 3 of 141 (243116)
09-13-2005 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by igor_the_hero
09-13-2005 5:25 PM


I have trouble grasping why evolution has chosen one of the most random events known to humankind as its mechanism.
That's reasonable because evolution made no such choice.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 10 of 141 (243152)
09-13-2005 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by igor_the_hero
09-13-2005 10:13 PM


Re: Evolution's primary mechanism
Change is slow Igor. It's not a 100% change, or a 75% change of a 50% change. It's little small changes over long long periods of time.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 20 of 141 (243379)
09-14-2005 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by igor_the_hero
09-14-2005 3:59 PM


Re: Evolution's primary mechanism
We are told that natural selection decides what must mutate and it is successful.
Well, if so, you're being told wrong stuff.
There is no plan to evolution, no goal or direction.
Mutations happen all the time and in every single organism.
Natural selection is simply a description for the environment, where we and every other thing lives.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 23 of 141 (243388)
09-14-2005 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by igor_the_hero
09-14-2005 4:15 PM


Re: Evolution's primary mechanism
Because we don't all experience the same environment. In addition, since mutations are random, there can be many that are still successful.
This message has been edited by jar, 09-14-2005 03:23 PM

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 25 of 141 (243394)
09-14-2005 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by igor_the_hero
09-14-2005 4:26 PM


Re: Evolution's primary mechanism
Not at all. Mutation happen all the time. You yourself probably have twenty or thirty or more mutations.
This message has been edited by jar, 09-14-2005 03:31 PM

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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 Message 24 by igor_the_hero, posted 09-14-2005 4:26 PM igor_the_hero has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 27 of 141 (243398)
09-14-2005 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by igor_the_hero
09-14-2005 4:34 PM


Re: Evolution's primary mechanism
No, I'm saying that mutations are actually not very unusual. They happen all the time.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by igor_the_hero, posted 09-14-2005 4:34 PM igor_the_hero has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 29 of 141 (243401)
09-14-2005 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by igor_the_hero
09-14-2005 4:41 PM


Re: Evolution's primary mechanism
But mutations are seen today.
There are several that are sweeping through the human population right now. There is one that seems to provide all the benefits in malaria resistence of sickle cell but without the draw backs.
Kinda exciting.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 54 of 141 (249775)
10-07-2005 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by ausar_maat
10-07-2005 11:11 AM


Re: Evolution's primary mechanism
But I guess my preceding post will perhaps clarify what I mean by that.
No it didn't. I started to respond to your post but then changed my mind because the more I reread it the less sure I became of what you are trying to say.
Let me try rewording and see if I'm close.
Are you saying fossil evidence is scanty? If that's the case, could you consider a few things for me?
First, fossil evidence is not scanty. Even the fossil collections here in the US contain tens of millions of specimens.
Second, fossils are only one part of the supporting base for the TOE. It has also been supported by genetic discoveries, geology, even astrophysics. In fact, just about every advancement in science over the last century has simply strengthened the TOE.
Are you saying it's wrong to dismiss Creationists out of hand? If so, consider the fact that that doesn't happen. There are many creationists like myself who have no issues whatsoever with the TOE. All that is dismissed out of hand are two small subsets of creationists.
First, Classical Biblical Creationists are dismissed out of hand because they have been proven wrong. No matter what happens in the future regarding the TOE, we know for a fact that the Universe was not created 6000 years ago or that life, any life, hominid and otherwise, was all created in a short span 6000 years ago. That's just plain wrong.
The other dismissal are creationists that try to treat the act of creation as science rather than belief. I believe GOD created the universe. But I also know that to state that as a fact I need to provided replicable evidence that GOD is a fact. Until I can do that, all I have is a belief.
If those are not the issues you were raiseing, perhaps you can try rewording what it is you see as flaws and we can give it another go.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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 Message 53 by ausar_maat, posted 10-07-2005 11:11 AM ausar_maat has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 56 of 141 (249783)
10-07-2005 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Modulous
10-07-2005 12:00 PM


Somewhat OT but perhaps enlightening.
Natural Historians and Astrophysicists face similar problems but seen in the reverse direction. When the astrophysicist look through a telescope at a star, he is actually seeing the star as it existed in the past. It's a veritable time machine. The astrophysicist can then interpolate to describe what that star might look like in the present.
The Natural Historian though looks at the remains as they exist today and must then interpolate how they might have looked in the past.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 58 of 141 (249786)
10-07-2005 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by ausar_maat
10-07-2005 12:14 PM


Re: Evolution's primary mechanism
It has to do with whether the observations have significance. Some of them do. It's not an all this, all that scenario. But regardless for prior motives, I find some of these observations undermine the model significantly enough to be taken seriously.
What observations?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by ausar_maat, posted 10-07-2005 12:14 PM ausar_maat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by ausar_maat, posted 10-07-2005 12:30 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 60 of 141 (249796)
10-07-2005 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by ausar_maat
10-07-2005 12:30 PM


Re: Evolution's primary mechanism
Which creationist observations? Unless we know what observations we're talking about it's hard to discuss.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by ausar_maat, posted 10-07-2005 12:30 PM ausar_maat has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 63 of 141 (249818)
10-07-2005 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by ausar_maat
10-07-2005 1:01 PM


Re: Evolution's primary mechanism
No. I beleive in Creation as an Article of Faith, but there is no evidence to support that belief.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 84 of 141 (266828)
12-08-2005 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Carico
12-08-2005 9:30 AM


One major, major error in your thinking
And all of this to deny that God exists!
That is an utterly false statement.
This is slightly Off Topic but needs to be corrected.
Evolution and the Theory of Evolution says nothing about whether or not GOD exists. Many of the supporters of the TOE believe in GOD and are Christians. In fact, every one of the major Christian sects supports the teaching of Evolution and opposes teaching Creationism or ID.
The Clergy Project

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Carico, posted 12-08-2005 9:30 AM Carico has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Carico, posted 12-08-2005 3:04 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 90 of 141 (266926)
12-08-2005 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Carico
12-08-2005 3:04 PM


Re: One major, major error in your thinking
Then why not simply believe that God created man?
Because despite your incredulity, and your basic misunderstanding of what Evolution is or what the Theory of Evolution says, that's what ALL of the evidence says. To believe in Classical Biblical Creationism is not just bad science, it's even worse theology.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by NosyNed, posted 12-08-2005 5:26 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 92 of 141 (266940)
12-08-2005 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by NosyNed
12-08-2005 5:26 PM


My beliefs, for Carico
I thank you for pointing that out. It's often difficult, particularly with a new poster, to remember that they most likely haven't yet had time to discern what the position of other posters really is.
Carico, I believe that the vast majority of Christians that also support Evolution and the Theory of Evolution, believe that this wonderful universe and all that's in it, was created by a loving GOD. What we are searching for in this quest is simply How GOD did it.
GOD created a Universe that is consistent and reasonable. Part of that wonderful system is the self-sustaining and self-healing system that we call Evolution. If you really believe in GOD and would like to see what I consider pretty strong evidence of his reality, one of the first places to look is Evolution.
Consider the system. It's designed to change as conditions change. It constantly creates new opportunities through mutation, so that as conditions change, Natural Selection, life goes on. What more wonderous example could be found. This is not some picayune system that must be constantly tinkered with to keep it running. Instead it is elegant, simple, versatile and self-regulating.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Replies to this message:
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