Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 66 (9164 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,478 Year: 3,735/9,624 Month: 606/974 Week: 219/276 Day: 59/34 Hour: 2/3


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Definition of Evolution
Tusko
Member (Idle past 123 days)
Posts: 615
From: London, UK
Joined: 10-01-2004


Message 5 of 212 (418252)
08-27-2007 5:00 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Ihategod
08-26-2007 9:45 PM


If I understand you rightly, you are saying that it is unscientific to belief evolutionary change took place before people observed it.
This isn't actually true. This belief can be scientific. Whether observed first hand or not, there is still a wealth of evidence from beyond a human timeframe (paleontology in conjunction with geology for example) that is best explained using an evolutionary hypothesis.
You say you are unhappy with mechanisms, but why? One reason you might object is because once a mechanism is in place, then for what you say to be true, you would require a second 'brake' mechanism to be in place to prevent continued change by natural selection. By itself, this isn't a very persuasive argument against evolutionary mechanisms. So putting this ad hoc objection aside, why don't you think mechanisms should be classified within evolution?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Ihategod, posted 08-26-2007 9:45 PM Ihategod has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Ihategod, posted 08-27-2007 9:59 AM Tusko has replied

  
Tusko
Member (Idle past 123 days)
Posts: 615
From: London, UK
Joined: 10-01-2004


Message 24 of 212 (418439)
08-28-2007 6:33 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Ihategod
08-27-2007 9:59 AM


Keeping an open mind
This supplicates both of our religions.
I fundamentally disagree. If solid evidence showed up that contradicted evolution it would facinate me. I would want to find out more. I would want to read scientific opinions on this evidence. I would follow wherever the evidence led, so if enough evidence of this nature came up, I would radically modify my opinion of evolution - perhaps even discard it.
Your attitude seems very different. Evidence that contradicts your beliefs is percieved as a threat. It is to be avoided, rejected, ignored. You are scared of following the evidence because you are scared of discarding your beliefs.
That is why only your beliefs can legitimately be regarded as religious.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Ihategod, posted 08-27-2007 9:59 AM Ihategod has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Ihategod, posted 08-30-2007 12:10 AM Tusko has replied

  
Tusko
Member (Idle past 123 days)
Posts: 615
From: London, UK
Joined: 10-01-2004


Message 64 of 212 (418753)
08-30-2007 5:48 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Ihategod
08-30-2007 12:10 AM


Re: Keeping an open mind
Although you question the relevance of my comment to the topic, I think there's some mileage in an examination of your belief in evolutionary dogmatism.
You appear to define those aspects of evolutionary theory with which you are unhappy - let’s call that macroevolution for want of a better term - as dogmatic, unscientific, and inadmissible. Some people have already pointed out an obvious problem with this stance; namely, that it is inconsistent to on the one hand require rigorous empirical evidence for scientific claims, but on the other accept the claims of an ancient civilisation's apparently fantastical text as gospel.
It seems that you are dividing scientific investigation into two - that which can be directly observed through experiment and that which can be inferred from secondary evidence. One you accept, one you don’t. I believe this distinction to be artificial because in an absolute sense all evidence relies to some degree on the secondary - to the point that we cannot know anything without accepting that it is a past event mediated through our senses and memory. What makes you reject the fossil record as being too removed and mysterious, and yet accept the idea that there were Incan or Egyptian people? If you accept their existence, why is it that you reject Atlantians? Similarly, what do you make of an 'indirect' observation of an atom through an electron microscope?
The question I am asking, then, is this:
Do you draw the line beyond which you cannot believe the claims of evidence-based science because it is too indirect for your liking for any reason other than convenience?
There is an irony in a fundamentalist's approach. When it comes to their favoured religion, its sacred text is considered to be so self-evident as to not require interpretation; however, when looking at the fossil record it is expedient to emphasise humanity's ignorance and to claim that it is impossible to interpret it. By this argument from ignorance it is denied that any claim, no matter how tentative, can be made.
I'd like to respond again to the idea that science is as dogmatic as religion. I don't know if I hold much store in Freud really, but I've always liked the idea of transference, and it (or something like it) seems to be operating here. It benefits you to believe that scientists generally share your tendency to dogmatism. This really isn't true. I'm not saying that people who believe in the efficacy of scientific investigation are always able to discard incorrect ideas about how the world works as quickly as perhaps they should. The unsentimental shedding of errors is, however, the ideal.
For a deeply committed religious type though, this readiness to change beliefs in light of new evidence cannot be the ideal. Or am I wrong? Do the beliefs of the devout change according to the evidence of the physical world around them?
*Which to me seems to be a convenience with the most wibbly goalposts imaginable and not a rigorously thought out definition.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Ihategod, posted 08-30-2007 12:10 AM Ihategod has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Ihategod, posted 08-30-2007 9:22 AM Tusko has replied

  
Tusko
Member (Idle past 123 days)
Posts: 615
From: London, UK
Joined: 10-01-2004


Message 90 of 212 (418925)
08-31-2007 6:06 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Ihategod
08-30-2007 9:22 AM


Re: Keeping an open mind
I honestly don't profess any particular confidence that my view of the world is true; however, it is true that I believe observation of the physical world provides us with the best means of understanding the way the world works.
Do I sense from your post that you are somewhat contemptuous of people who have unshakable faith in their own worldviews?
Edited by Tusko, : tyoo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Ihategod, posted 08-30-2007 9:22 AM Ihategod has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024