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Author Topic:   Critique of Ann Coulter's The Church of Liberalism: Godless
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 151 of 298 (333172)
07-19-2006 12:57 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by arachnophilia
07-19-2006 12:32 AM


Re: Let's try this again
no, the links that ARE the dates. see my post above.
Yeah, I just clicked on your links. Most of Rude Pundit's links
I only found one thing specific. And it was about her alleged plagiarism of a list of beneficially medical procedures due to Adult Stem Cell research. So, I checked her sources in the back of my book, and they are as follows:
52. Michael Fumento, "The Adult Answer" National Review, December 20, 2004
54. Hankook Ilbo, "Stem Cell Research May Be Money Game," Korea Times, July 8, 2005
56. Michael Fumento, "Adult Stem Cells Provide New Life For Livers," Scripps Howard News Service, October 20, 2005
59. See gnerally, Michael Fumento, "Why the Media Miss the Stem-cell Story," Citizen Magazine, May 2005, http://www.fumento.com/sustemcell.html
Naturally, every one the claims that comes from Coulter are predominantly backed up by Michael Fumento. There is no plagiarism, I have the book in my lap as we speak reading the index.
"there are only so many ways you can present a fact."
There was only one other referrence that was even questionable, but there are only so many ways you can reword the facts about the case, which she did.
also understand that published books are held to a higher standard than message board posts, tv appearances, et

“Always be ready to give a defense to
everyone who asks you a reason for the
hope that is in you.”
-1st Peter 3:15

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by arachnophilia, posted 07-19-2006 12:32 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by arachnophilia, posted 07-19-2006 1:07 AM Hyroglyphx has replied
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 152 of 298 (333176)
07-19-2006 1:07 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by Hyroglyphx
07-19-2006 12:57 AM


stem cell plagiarism
ok, one at a time then.
Naturally, every one the claims that comes from Coulter are predominantly backed up by Michael Fumento. There is no plagiarism, I have the book in my lap as we speak reading the index.
but not the source it's been shown they were taken from?
quote:
In an endnote, Coulter indicates that the information on her list was taken from the work of fellow Townhall contributor and author Michael Fumento, and provides a link to a page of his website devoted to articles he wrote on "understanding stem cells."
A RAW STORY examination of the numerous articles by Fumento linked at the address provided by Coulter found no comparable list. Articles by Fumento that did contain lists of adult stem cell "breakthroughs" (articles from 2001, and 2004,) employed far different language.
Raw Story - Celebrating 18 Years of Independent Journalism - 404 Not Found
it nearly matches word for word the illinios website:
quote:
Illinois Right To Life: Spinal cord injury repair (using stem cells from nasal and sinus regions)

Coulter: Repairing spinal cord injuries by using stem cells from nasal and sinus regions.

Illinois Right To Life: Complete reversal of juvenile diabetes in mice using adult spleen cells

Coulter: Completely reversing Type 1 diabetes in mice using adult spleen cells

Illinois Right To Life: Crohn’s Disease put into remission (using patient’s blood stem cells)

Coulter: Putting Crohn's disease into remission with the patient's own blood stem cells

Illinois Right To Life: Lupus put into remission (using stem cells from patient’s bloodstream)

Coulter: Putting lupus into remission using stem cells from the patient's bloodstream

Illinois Right To Life: Repair heart muscle in cases of congestive heart failure (using stem cells from bone marrow)

Coulter: Repairing the heart muscles in patients with congestive heart failure using adult stem cells from bone marrow.

Illinois Right To Life: Repair heart attack damage (using the patient’s own blood stem cells)

Coulter: Repairing heart attack damage with the patient’s own blood stem cells

Illinois Right To Life: Restore bone marrow in cancer patients (using stem cells from umbilical cord blood)

Coulter: Restoring bone marrow in cancer patients using stem cells from umbilical cord blood.

Illinois Right To Life: Restore weak heart muscles (using immature skeletal muscle cells)

Coulter: Restoring weak heart muscles using immature skeletal muscle cells

Illinois Right To Life: Put leukemia into remission (using umbilical cord blood)

Coulter: Putting leukemia into remission using umbilical cord blood

Illinois Right To Life: Heal bone fractures (using bone marrow cells)

Coulter: Healing bone fractures with bone marrow cells.

Illinois Right To Life: Restore a blind man’s sight (using an ocular surface stem-cell transplant & a cornea transplant)

Coulter: Restoring sight in blind people using an ocular surface stem-cell transplant and a cornea transplant

Illinois Right To Life: Treat urinary incontinence (using under arm muscle stem cells)

Coulter: Treating urinary incontinence using stem cells from underarm muscle

Illinois Right To Life: Reverse severe combined immunodeficiency (SCID) (using genetically modified adult stem cells)

Coulter: Reversing severe combined immunodeficiency (SCID) with genetically modified adult cells.

Illinois Right To Life: Restore blood circulation in legs (using bone marrow stem cells)

Coulter: Restoring blood circulation in legs with bone marrow stem cells.

Illinois Right To Life: Treat sickle-cell anemia (using stem cells from unbilical cord blood)

Coulter: Treating sickle-cell anemia using stem cells from umbilical cord blood.

(ibid)
coulter's list bears no similarity to fumento's articles. she credits fumento, and does not credit the place she very obviously lifted nearly every word from. maybe it's just an oversight, but it's still plagiarism. and if they're all oversight, then it's darned sloppy writing.
Edited by arachnophilia, : subtitle, left out a citation rather ironically


This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-19-2006 12:57 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-19-2006 12:49 PM arachnophilia has replied

ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 4110 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 153 of 298 (333181)
07-19-2006 2:23 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by Hyroglyphx
07-18-2006 8:03 PM


Re: Let's try this again
I just watched one of her interviews with jeremy paxton, where he straight out asks her if she believes anything in her book could be true, she says everything she writes is true or she wouldn't write it.
you can tell she thinks he's an idiot for asking this question, this is not satire, not one remote chance of it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UB9UE5eE2_k&search=Ann%20...
stephen colbert is satire check out the report to see real satire not some insanity you might mistake for it
just to add its a pretty funny clip since paxman is nothing like any one she has delt with, just watch her face as she gets lost outside her element
Edited by ReverendDG, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 154 of 298 (333212)
07-19-2006 6:06 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by ReverendDG
07-19-2006 2:23 AM


Re: Let's try this again
just to add its a pretty funny clip since paxman is nothing like any one she has delt with, just watch her face as she gets lost outside her element
To be honest, I cannot believe that Paxman was so soft with her. He was obviously having an off day. Then again, the sheer disbelief in his eyes was a joy to watch

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nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 155 of 298 (333228)
07-19-2006 7:09 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by Hyroglyphx
07-18-2006 10:15 PM


Re: Is ignorance bliss?
quote:
Al Franken is funny, even though I think he's an idiot.
He's a Harvard graduate and a current Harvard research fellow.
He's very, very bright.
It takes a lot of smarts to be that funny. A certain nimbleness of mind.
A lot of wit to be witty, one might say.
Perhaps you might quote some of the things he's said which you believe are idiotic?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-18-2006 10:15 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-20-2006 12:17 AM nator has replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 156 of 298 (333234)
07-19-2006 7:47 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by Hyroglyphx
07-19-2006 12:57 AM


Re: Let's try this again
i write for a living too, and i assure you, there are MILLIONS of ways to word something. if she lacks creativity, that's her problem. besides. if you do paraphrase something YOU STILL HAVE TO CITE IT.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-19-2006 12:57 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by arachnophilia, posted 07-19-2006 12:00 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 157 of 298 (333244)
07-19-2006 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by cavediver
07-19-2006 6:06 AM


Re: Let's try this again
To be honest, I cannot believe that Paxman was so soft with her.
To me, Coulter comes across in that video as totally insincere. Maybe that's why he was soft.

Compassionate conservatism - bringing you a kinder, gentler torture chamber

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Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 158 of 298 (333245)
07-19-2006 8:43 AM


What I find funny is that she complains about liberal christianity, yet she has the audacity to leave the kitchen.

Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3993 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 159 of 298 (333250)
07-19-2006 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by Hyroglyphx
07-19-2006 12:57 AM


Re: Let's try this again
Hey, Jugs, I agree with you about her satirical humour. Look how Annie spoofs Sharon Stone
http://www.3gpclip.com/...nn-coulter-flashing-donnie-deutsch

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-19-2006 12:57 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 160 of 298 (333292)
07-19-2006 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by macaroniandcheese
07-19-2006 7:47 AM


Re: Let's try this again
if you do paraphrase something YOU STILL HAVE TO CITE IT.
even if you already cite it elsewhere. between these two factors, this is the number one way students get tossed from college classes.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by macaroniandcheese, posted 07-19-2006 7:47 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by macaroniandcheese, posted 07-19-2006 12:02 PM arachnophilia has replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 161 of 298 (333294)
07-19-2006 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by arachnophilia
07-19-2006 12:00 PM


Re: Let's try this again
yep. parentheticals aren't hard.

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 Message 160 by arachnophilia, posted 07-19-2006 12:00 PM arachnophilia has replied

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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 162 of 298 (333317)
07-19-2006 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by crashfrog
07-18-2006 10:24 PM


Re: Let's try this again
She's a reckless, bigmouth ideologue who absolutely refuses to apologize for anything that she says, absolutely refuses to claim she was joking. When she calls for the assassination of President Clinton, or calls for the terrorist bombing of the New York Times, she's absolutely serious. Aside from her crackhead giggling, what evidence do you have that she isn't?
The fact that she has you so riled up allows you to play yourself right into her hands. And yes, there is satire all throughout all of her books. Its called being witty, and liberal pundits do it all the time. I can only assume that it no longer becomes satire if you just so happen to disagree with the message.

“Always be ready to give a defense to
everyone who asks you a reason for the
hope that is in you.”
-1st Peter 3:15

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by crashfrog, posted 07-18-2006 10:24 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by crashfrog, posted 07-19-2006 12:51 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 163 of 298 (333322)
07-19-2006 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by arachnophilia
07-19-2006 1:07 AM


Re: stem cell plagiarism
coulter's list bears no similarity to fumento's articles. she credits fumento, and does not credit the place she very obviously lifted nearly every word from. maybe it's just an oversight, but it's still plagiarism. and if they're all oversight, then it's darned sloppy writing.
Okay, so this is where she is said to take all of the information from according to Raw Story:
Page not found - Illinois Right to Life
And this is what they say about it:
In an endnote, Coulter indicates that the information on her list was taken from the work of fellow Townhall contributor and author Michael Fumento, and provides a link to a page of his website devoted to articles he wrote on "understanding stem cells."
A RAW STORY examination of the numerous articles by Fumento linked at the address provided by Coulter found no comparable list. Articles by Fumento that did contain lists of adult stem cell "breakthroughs" (articles from 2001, and 2004,) employed far different language.
However, the first item on Coulter's list - which isn't mentioned at the Illinios Right to Life website - does appear to be derived from the opening lines of an article written by Fumento last October."
But all of the compilation of works for the Illinoisrighttolife derive from Fumento's work and Hankook Ilbo, which Coulter cited. So what is the controversy? That she placed the facts concerning Adult Stem Cell benefits in the same order as the Illinois website?
Far be it from me to point out the obvious, but this quibbling is much-ado-about-nothing in a presumed attempt to detract from the actual points of the argument - which is Adult Stem Cells have yielded far more benefits than that of Fetal Stem Cells. In other words, abortion isn't somehow justified over Fetal Stem Cells.

“Always be ready to give a defense to
everyone who asks you a reason for the
hope that is in you.”
-1st Peter 3:15

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by arachnophilia, posted 07-19-2006 1:07 AM arachnophilia has replied

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 164 of 298 (333323)
07-19-2006 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Hyroglyphx
07-19-2006 12:32 PM


Re: Let's try this again
And yes, there is satire all throughout all of her books.
The classic example of political satire is usually Johnathan Swift's A Modest Proposal. Are you familiar with it? Swift proposed that the problems facing Ireland in the 1720's could be easily remedied by exporting the children of Ireland to England for consumption. Top to bottom, of course, he's kidding, but in a totally deadpan way.
But if Swift had been interviewed on national TV, and asked if he was serious that the English should eat Irish children, he would have laughed. Of course he wasn't serious, he would say. And he would properly lambast people who didn't get the joke.
Coulter never does that. She never "breaks character", if you will; she never lets on that it's a joke. That's how we know she's not joking. She really does believe that the nation's fortunes would be improved if every man and woman who worked for the New York Times was murdered, all at once.
Its called being witty
I've read her work, so you can dispense with the fiction that any wit is found within.
and liberal pundits do it all the time.
Well, of course, the difference is that liberal pundits are good at it.
I can only assume that it no longer becomes satire if you just so happen to disagree with the message.
That can certainly happen. To wit:
Area man mistakes Onion story for reality | Salon.com
quote:
It's the stuff of webby fantasy and urban legend: a reader who takes an Onion story seriously. Last week, a speedy and vicious blogosphere watched its collective wet dream made real when "Pete," proprietor of antiabortion blog March Together for Life, posted "Murder Without Conscience," a furious excoriation of a 7-year-old fake column in the Onion titled "I'm Totally Psyched About This Abortion!"
The Onion is a satirical newspaper founded in 1988 by University of Wisconsin students and is these days published weekly from New York.
I'm thinking that you're not too familiar with satire in a political context. Political satire is when you mock a position by appearing to advance and promote it by ironic arguments. Like The Onion; like Stephen Colbert on his Colbert Report. That's satire.
Coulter? The thing about Coulter is - she actually, honestly holds those positions, and her arguments for them are not ironic; they're just wrong. She's not a satirist; she's an inept, coarse pundit. If she were a liberal in "deep cover", as it were, it would be satire. But as an actual conservative, it's not satire of anything - it's just offensive bloviation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-19-2006 12:32 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-19-2006 1:37 PM crashfrog has replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 165 of 298 (333333)
07-19-2006 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by crashfrog
07-19-2006 12:51 PM


Re: Let's try this again
The classic example of political satire is usually Johnathan Swift's A Modest Proposal. Are you familiar with it?
I only know who Swift is, but I've never read his works.
proposed that the problems facing Ireland in the 1720's could be easily remedied by exporting the children of Ireland to England for consumption. Top to bottom, of course, he's kidding, but in a totally deadpan way.
So is Ann.
But if Swift had been interviewed on national TV, and asked if he was serious that the English should eat Irish children, he would have laughed. Of course he wasn't serious, he would say. And he would properly lambast people who didn't get the joke.
Yup, that sounds about right. I can't remember some of the off-the-wall humor she uses. One thing that comes to mind is somethig about how liberals paint the picture of Intelligent Designers sitting at home somewhere in the Bible-belt "speaking in tongues while watching NASCAR." Why did she mine by that? She was using satire to elucidate the point that some liberally-minded folks have a misguided perception about ID'ers. Her books are full of similar notions. To say that she doesn't use satire, when its so obvious when she uses it, is utterly ridiculous.
Coulter never does that. She never "breaks character", if you will; she never lets on that it's a joke. That's how we know she's not joking. She really does believe that the nation's fortunes would be improved if every man and woman who worked for the New York Times was murdered, all at once.
So, you honestly believe that she wants all people from the New York Times dead? So do I. Now, am I being serious? Do I really want all the people from the New York Times dead, or did I just say that because its satirical?
I've read her work, so you can dispense with the fiction that any wit is found within.
That's only because the silver-tongued starlett makes your beliefs look silly and you don't like that. She's witty.
Well, of course, the difference is that liberal pundits are good at it.
Some of them are very good at it. And for however crass they can be, I still get the humor. I'm not crying over it like you.
quote:It's the stuff of webby fantasy and urban legend: a reader who takes an Onion story seriously. Last week, a speedy and vicious blogosphere watched its collective wet dream made real when "Pete," proprietor of antiabortion blog March Together for Life, posted "Murder Without Conscience," a furious excoriation of a 7-year-old fake column in the Onion titled "I'm Totally Psyched About This Abortion!"
I think you need to get some thicker skin. Your delicate sensibilities get hurt all too easily. You know, some people put their aborted fetuses on display, or a crucifix in a jar of their own urine, or a pile of their own feces on display, all in the name of art. You know, making a parody on someone being "pysched" about an abortion is a far cry from someone who actually dismembers babies. Again, develop some thicker skin.
I'm thinking that you're not too familiar with satire in a political context. Political satire is when you mock a position by appearing to advance and promote it by ironic arguments. Like The Onion; like Stephen Colbert on his Colbert Report. That's satire.
I guess its only satire when you like it. You're the go-to-guy to decide what is or what isn't satire.
Coulter? The thing about Coulter is - she actually, honestly holds those positions, and her arguments for them are not ironic; they're just wrong. She's not a satirist; she's an inept, coarse pundit. If she were a liberal in "deep cover", as it were, it would be satire. But as an actual conservative, it's not satire of anything - it's just offensive bloviation.
Enjoy your opinon and be thankful that you live in a country where that freedom of speech can be expressed.

“Always be ready to give a defense to
everyone who asks you a reason for the
hope that is in you.”
-1st Peter 3:15

This message is a reply to:
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