Why does evolutionary science seem to be

No, it's the fundamentalists insisting that the bible is inerrant and vilifying anyone who believes differently that is destroying Christianity.

One of us is a bit long winded.

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Common sense isn't

But you can't think that people who believe in the Bible actually want to destroy Christianity - can you? Is that what you're saying? John Hagge wants to destroy Christianity?

I have no idea who John Hagge is, but no I don't think Christians are deliberately trying to destroy Christianity, that's absurd.I'm saying that the fundamentalist insistence on biblical inerrancy, the doctrine that the bible is absolutely correct in everything it says, is killing Christianity. More and more people are going to college, and most of them are not choosing to study at Bob Jones University. As people become more educated, they learn that the Biblical account of creation is impossible. It doesn't happen overnight. It happens when the sheer weight of the knowledge one acquires forces one to accept that this place wasn't created in 7 days, that all the different languages of the world didn't suddenly spring into being at a place called Babel, that the stars are not hanging in a firmament, that a bat is not a bird, that there was never a flood that covered the entire earth to a depth of some number of cubits above the highest mountain peak; I could go on but I feel sure you get the point.

Q3PSYCHO... Just to let you know you should hit the reply button at the bottom of an individual post, and not the one at the bottom of the page. That way the person you are responding to knows they have gotten a reply.

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I don't know what the heliocentric view is

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This is the belief that the earth orbits the sun. Many centuries ago that was the source of the same kind of debates we are having now on evo/creo.According to a literal interpretation of the Bible, the sun goes around the earth. In fact, everything goes around the earth. The earth is at the center of the Universe.People at the time felt that if this was proven wrong and that the earth was thought NOT to be the center of the Universe then the Bible was proven wrong, and so all of the Xian religion.Now I assume you have no problem dealing with the earth orbiting the sun. If you do, then I guess there's not much for me to say.However if you don't have a problem with that, it is because you have grown up accepting, like most Xians, that the Bible doesn't have to be literally true in every case. And in that particular case, the sun going aroung the earth is just not that important.Well, while Xians eventually got over that shock and accepted the earth going around the sun, eventually there came another inconsistency. It is what we are facing now: Evolution.Now you can look at the past and say, okay maybe evolution is like heliocentric theory... that part of the Bible is not literally true... and move on.Or you can say... despite already accepting some of the Bible is not literally true... for some reason how God created life MUST be LITERALLY true, or Xianity is dead.That is to repeat the error of the past and for what reason/profit I have no idea.

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Don't you think that the moral decay of sosciety is in part due to falling away from the Bible? Isn't that what evolution has done?

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No, and no.Evolution says nothing about whether you should follow the moral teachings of the Bible or not, so no it has no bearing on the Bible or morality.Also, and this is another topic for another thread, I don't believe that society is falling apart at all, much less because people are less religious. If anything, I feel there is a rise in religious bigotry that is causing problems worldwide. Not that people who are religious MUST be bigoted, but that many are approaching their religion this way.Most of the violence commited in the US and around the world has been inspired by religious fanaticism (including Xian fanaticism), and not by hedonists trying to have a good time.The current attempt by Xian fundies to purge evolution from science and replace its methodology with Intelligent Design or Creationist science is part of the problem.By the way, why... if you feel there is such a problem with morality in the world... did you choose the nic "psycho"?[This message has been edited by holmes, 02-03-2004]

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Who can know what they really want? However, they are the ones doing the best job of subjecting God to actual tests which can possibly be failed.The majority of Christians don't need scientific verification for their faith if this Hagge guy does then I guess his is a weak faith. Maybe very weak indeed.

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Common sense isn't

I would say the most violent thing is murder and we are murdering babies without the slightest care in this society. The only people I see speaking out about that are religious people.I do not condone killing abortion doctors. We just need to change the law and start respecting life again.I didn't think that the bible said the sun revolved around the earth. But yes, I undersatand wht you are saying. If you could prove evolution was true then you would have to accept it.Why did I choose psycho? Because I like psychology.

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I would say the most violent thing is murder and we are murdering babies without the slightest care in this society. The only people I see speaking out about that are religious people.

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That could be because it takes a religious... and a particular religious... view point to view a fertilized egg, or a gestating embryo, as the equivalent of a full grown human being.Evolution says nothing about this. You'll have to take it up with embryology, and those that study physical development. Particularly you'll have to ask them why they have not found what time a "soul" enters the embryo.

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I do not condone killing abortion doctors. We just need to change the law and start respecting life again.

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We are moving into a totally different topic at this point. But I must point out you are for making laws that will charge doctors with murder. Do you believe in the death penalty? If so, then you condone killing abortion doctors.I will also point out that one can respect life better by allowing the living to make choices with respect to their life and health, especially at early stages before the growing being is even viable, rather than treating the guaranteed living as mere incubators for the unborn.

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I didn't think that the bible said the sun revolved around the earth... If you could prove evolution was true then you would have to accept it.

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It does (though in slightly longer winded terms), we have (to nearly the same degree that we know the earth goes around the sun).Time to start accepting evolution.(edited in: if you want to see how this has all been done before with heliocentrism, start reading up on Galileo and heliocentric theory. Interestingly, I think it was just a few years back that the Catholic church finally apologized for threatening to kill him.)

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Why did I choose psycho? Because I like psychology.

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It's Psych-ology, not Psycho-logy. If you persist in your nomenclature people may think the patients have truly taken over the asylum.[This message has been edited by holmes, 02-03-2004]

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Asgara,you comment, refering to the idea of a creator.I'm curious as to why you believe this.Stephen

I think that when you learn and see science, you get to see it only refers to (as MrHambre rightly said) methodological naturalism. I think Asgara babe is just saying that because of this it/there is no opinion of God, because "science" - the subject, is based on evidence.With science, proving/disproving God seems to be impossible because God could literally not take part, or add too much hydrochloric acid .Hope you know what I mean Stephen.
God bless,......Mike.

Hey, Mike,No, I didn't get the hydrochloric acid part...Help!Stephen

Hehe, it was just a silly joke. For e.g. There is no experiment to prove/disprove God. Because he could not want us to find him in that kind of way......he could add too much acid if no acid = God.
I'm babbling Stephen.

Mike,Babbling, huh. Like Colombo? Good choice for this forum. He has a delightful epistemological strategy.Are you aware that Jehovah, if He is out there and wrote the Bible, says that He made a provision for us to "prove" Him scientifically. It's described in Malachi 3:8-12. The Materialistic Naturalists would like us to believe that He cannot be proven, but if He is the Creator, and says He created things so He could be "proven," then He is right about that, and not them. The only way to know, of course, is to do the experiment He describes, and see what, if anything, happens. This, to my knowledge, has only been done anecdotally, but always with reported "proving" of Him.Remember doubting Thomas. It would be unkind to discourage such a person from finding their God, by telling them that they cannot put God to the test.Stephen

Fair point. I ofcourse, and you, already believe. Personally, I think believing is more important than proving. Though I do know, as you say - that God is capable of proving himself to the individual, via prayer/recieving e.t.c.I think, like Yeshua said, we should seek the Kingdom first and believe when we pray, that we recieve. You and I know that belief is the key. Scientifically - I personally think God is there to be found. But there is a vail of doubt upon the unbeliever.Nevertheless - I don't think science deals with God or seeks to prove/disprove him. I guess it deals with the "how" not the "why".I also, like Columbo, focus on the little things. I have to tie up those loose ends.[This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 02-03-2004]

Thanks Darlin', That is basically, exactly what I was saying. Science has not taken any stance on the supernatural other than to say that it takes no stance.

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Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato